Political Theory

Re: Minimum Wage

GavinPalmer1984 — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:29:06 GMT

There are various approaches to our current economic disaster which begin to move us in the right direction. There is a flavor of statism in some of the approaches because change usually comes through atrition and we are already a Statist society.

But I also propose a grass roots solution of charity and volunteerism. So all of the absoloutist in this crowd do have something they can begin to do: which is to generally volunteer their time to provide products without the government dollar. The grassroots volunteerism solution is in no way based on force.

I am a problem solver. So I try to base my theories in our practical reality. The best thing we can do is take our unique experiences and attempt to learn from each other. Otherwise - there is no point in the conversation at all.

Re: Minimum Wage

Anenome — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 11:04:16 GMT

GavinPalmer1984:

The most fit organization will be one that doesn't exclusively use the money of governments. I think minimum wage laws should be replaced with "minimum standard of living laws". This allows corporations to move toward self-sufficient organization where government money-wages are not necessary.

But this also requires a country to stop trading with countries who do not uphold the same minimum standard of living law.

Unfortunately your proposal requires you to force companies and workers to do what they would not have chosen to do on their own as a product of free contract. I think you're a statist theorist without any qualms of using the coercive power of government to craft the perfect society you imagine, without realizing your plans are tyranny.

Re: Minimum Wage

GavinPalmer1984 — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:24:53 GMT

I'm always learning more - which helps me to refine my understanding.

Re: Minimum Wage

John James — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:16:02 GMT

Hey, look who's back.

Re: Minimum Wage

No2statism — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:44:28 GMT

Keeping the minimum wage may be even worse than more negative taxes.

Re: Minimum Wage

GavinPalmer1984 — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:23:21 GMT

Government will decrease as charity and volunteerism increase. The charitable organizations must become self-sufficient in their relationships with each other. The price floor in terms of currency price can become near zero as volunteers cooperate effectively.

I see this path of volunteerism and charity to be ideal as robots fix robots and politicians foolishly attempt to create more work. A rational organization is one that attempts to reduce the amount of work needed to provide a good or service.

Our markets see planned obsolescence, pollution, wasteful regulation, and general inefficiency because these practices end up benefiting a small group of people while placing costs on another group of people. The foundation of these wasteful tendencies lies in a lack of competition and a lack of awareness.

The job of the non-profit is to compete in the markets to provide goods and services at minimal costs. This disempowers the profit seekers who are willing to deceptively place costs on consumers as a means of increasing personal profit. The other job of the non-profit is to increase awareness of each individual concerning the consequences of their interactions within the economy.

As an individual - we can begin to engage the economy with renewed understanding that it is healthier for our economy to become conscientious consumers who do not always seek the lowest price because prices do NOT currently reflect ALL costs with regard to SUSTAINABILITY.

Re: Minimum Wage

Malachi — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 21:08:02 GMT

Things that are seen vs. Things that are not seen. When the government regulations make it impossible to have taxi service below a certain dollar amount, you dont see taxi service below a certain dollar amount.

Re: Minimum Wage

MaikU — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 20:41:06 GMT

Where I came from, minimum wage is a standard. Thanks to our great government.

Re: Minimum Wage

Wibee — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 19:03:32 GMT

I understand businesses being priced out of the market. But still, hardly anyone pays the minimum wage. It would seem it's effects on the price of goods would be negligible since only a very small minority pays the minimum wage.

Unless that is just a marketing strategy to say they do not hire people at minimum wage.

Perhaps if there was no minimum wage limitations, one would see more competition. Once the competition gains market share, they may raise prices accordingly.

So much easier to argure that it is no one's business to tell me what wage I should pay...

Re: Minimum Wage

Malachi — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 17:45:02 GMT

>>>>How do minimum wage laws affect business when the amount of businesses who give the minimum wage is in the lower single digit % bracket?>>>>

It prices all potential businesses that would use less valuable labor out of the market, period. It also forces the prices of goods and labor up, by instituting an artificial floor, therefore the cost of any good must necessarily rise. Fast food is more expensive and lower quality because the demand for fast food is sufficient to overcome the inefficiency of the minimum wage. The quality suffers as a result because artificially inflating the value of labor creates a sense of entitlement among the underclass. If the were making $2 an hour to start, they would really really want to get the order right so they could earn a raise.

Re: Minimum Wage

Wibee — Sun, 09 Oct 2011 00:37:39 GMT

How do minimum wage laws affect business when the amount of businesses who give the minimum wage is in the lower single digit % bracket?

Re: Minimum Wage

ThatOldGuy — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:25:33 GMT

Smiling Dave:

No.

Here's a quote from AGD about using statistics to prove or disprove an ecnomic theory [emphasis mine]:

Is that quote also in Rothbard's "In Defense of Extreme Apriorism"?

Re: Minimum Wage

jay — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 20:10:56 GMT

Jack Roberts:
But these days a minimum standard of living includes an iphones and tvs and take out food etc.

Which is why the "livable wage" argument is nonsense. I can tell you right off the bat that my standard of living is very different than the guy a few cubes over from me. A "livable wage" is whatever politicians and state-meddlers say it is.

Re: Minimum Wage

Jack Roberts — Fri, 07 Oct 2011 19:08:17 GMT

Birthday Pony:

I think the point of minimum wage laws are to placate criticism of authority from the left while effectively setting a minimum wage that does little or nothing as far as being a price floor or actually giving people a wage they can sustain themselves off of.

I agree but I think the government might have used the living wage as a justification at some point in history and it most likely did increase some peoples wages at the time. But i stand to be corrected on that one. Thanks to inflation and central banking the days where you could live off the minimum wage are long gone. But then there could be a counter argument that the minimum standard of living has increased, to which the minimum wage has not increased at the same rate. So when the minimum wage was created it would sufficient to have a home with food and you were lucky to have a toilet in your house, electricity, a table to eat off etc. But these days a minimum standard of living includes an iphones and tvs and take out food etc.

Re: Minimum Wage

GavinPalmer1984 — Thu, 06 Oct 2011 20:34:34 GMT

@limitgov

I really don't know the answer to that one. There are many people who are stuck on the idea of minimum wages.

@jay

I don't expect people to jointly value healthy living conditions and nothing else. I was just trying to describe my idea of a minimum standard of living.

I don't think our current market is moving toward a reduced cost of living. The existence of minimum wage laws create price floors. So I am suggesting a new perspective where corporations can internally reduce the cost of living for their employees. The corporations who can provide the lowest cost of living will probably attract the better employees. So it is not a matter of planning or force - but a matter of providing opportunity.

I also see this idea as opportunity for micro-socialism to manifest internally within corporations. I think socialist economies have the potential of minimizing the cost of living moreso than capitalism. We just haven't found a form of socialism that works. This approach allows corporations to experiment with a working socialist model internally while producing products and services within the external capitalist market.

@Jack Roberts

I think you missed my point. The employees might not receive any wages. The employees obtain standards of living because the company is a self-sufficient community that does not require products and services from outside of the company's assets.