Political Theory

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

AJ — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 13:06:46 GMT

Collectivism can usefully mean: 1. The error of equivocating between groups of people and their individual constituents, often because language fails to make the distinction clear, as in "We attacked Russia." 2. Tribal instincts that drive the tendency to reify groups into beings of their own. 3. The incoherent political philosophies people fall into as a result of 1 and/or 2. We can definitely escape collectivism of semantic origin, though maybe not that of tribal origin. Still, fixing the language issues would help tremendously.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Freedom4Me73986 — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 04:46:41 GMT

So I stay with my previous assumption, I think OP is just confused what collectivism really is and created huge generalisation, that includes not only his hated group of people (socialists/communists) but also ancaps and voluntaryists :D

No. Collectivism means all individual rights are destroyed and the individual is a slave to the 51%. It is the exact opposite of voluntaryism.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

silvija567 — Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:16:06 GMT

I hate collectivism and it is brutal to force us to work together, if we don't have to choose to. I like to work with people I love to work with, but mainly we have to work with those, we don't choose. This is bad. And I could scream.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

MaikU — Fri, 28 Oct 2011 04:06:42 GMT

Good insight, vive la insurrection :)

So I stay with my previous assumption, I think OP is just confused what collectivism really is and created huge generalisation, that includes not only his hated group of people (socialists/communists) but also ancaps and voluntaryists :D

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Neodoxy — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 02:45:34 GMT

"In the sense that I think you are using the word you could see capitalism as ultra-collectivist. All it does is recognize that "society", "collectives", and every other spook that is a "thing initself" is a grammatical error as opposed to capitalism, which rests calculation on the individual interacting and objecitifing things within the world at that moment in time as the only plausible thing one can talk about.

The results fromthis is a very specialized division of labor, which we are all even more interdependent on the richer and more proserous we get - due to our own extant and therefore expressed obvious wants and desires. The end result is a complex technocratic civilization driven by individuals moving for themselves acting in their own self interests - because we are social by nature, as it serves our purposes. We would rather be controlling people and showing our authority and prowess to them, rather than being the last man standing ...at least to any significant and relevant degree.

Capitalism and Liberalism/liberterianism are extremely bourgoise and cosmoploitan by their very nature.

This should not come a surprise to you or anyone interested in social theory. If it does it would lead me to suspect that you are once again, a casualty of dubious political baiting and pandering by political ideologists/ propagandist jockying for their pet political theory to be heard."

Quoted for the astronomically epic truth. Capitalism is the most effectively collectivistic system that has ever existed. Feudalism and earlier systems were effectively far more individualistic than capitalism is. There's a reason why a recurring theme in Human Action is the term "Consumer's democracy"

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

vive la insurrection — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:53:16 GMT

In the sense that I think you are using the word you could see capitalism as ultra-collectivist. All it does is recognize that "society", "collectives", and every other spook that is a "thing initself" is a grammatical error as opposed to capitalism, which rests calculation on the individual interacting and objecitifing things within the world at that moment in time as the only plausible thing one can talk about.

Capitalism and Liberalism/liberterianism are extremely bourgoise and cosmoploitan by their very nature.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

MaikU — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 22:01:54 GMT

Collectivism isn't violence per se, but in some cases it leads to it, that's one thing for sure. I think many ancaps think that way because of statist type of collectivism, or, to word it better, state imposed collectivism ("either you with us or against us" kind of mentality, that shares huge similarities with nationalism etc.)

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Chyd3nius — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 21:15:42 GMT

Collectivism IS violence. I dont think you get that. A coop (what the mutualists promote) is IDENTICAL in many ways to a state. It is bureaucratic just like the state.

So you think voluntary cooperation = collectivism? Voluntary cooperation is libertarian, free market and anarchocapitalist idea. It is what Hayek, Mises and Rothbard promoted. They said INvoluntary cooperation is collectivism, not the voluntary. What you are basicly suggesting is that all cooperation between people, even barter which you advocate, is collectivism and bad. Your definition of collectivism differs from Hayek, Mises and Rothbard.

But when you say that even the voluntary cooperation is violence, the whole argument starts so stink - a lot.

Pure individualism means everyone having total control over their own lives and property. It means always putting the individual before the collective and is always voluntary. Any form of collectivism becomes forceful.

Cooperation between people(trade, enterpise, families etc.) is not socialistic idea. It is voluntary free market.

If you work w/ mutualists and/or socialists in their coops pretty soon 51% of the people will be controlling and stealing from the 49%. The only way out IMHO is to leave and focus on yourself.

Is this the argument where you derive your whole point and H/G? If people start to trade and to do business between each other then we go to the road to serfdom?

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Neodoxy — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 20:44:56 GMT

I consider that the entire collectivist V. Individualist debate is a false dichotomy. There is no collective there are only individuals. You can put emphasis on the majority instead of the few, but this is still an individualistic approach. There is an individual, there is no society.

Furthermore many of those who claim to be "collectivistic" are often actually individualistic and vice versa. Welfarism supports the minority at the expense of the majority, it is more individualistic. On the other hand individualists usually support capitalism which has done more good for the vast majority of people than anything that the "collectivists" support.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

David Sherin — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:47:14 GMT

As long as they legitimately own the property, it's irrelevant. Any organization owned by more than one person must have some way of deciding in which direction to take said organization when the owners are not in agreement. Whether this is reached by a majority/plurality based on stock ownership (giving some owners more control than others) or one vote per owner, is not particularly important from the standpoint of a voluntarist. What matters is that the arrangement is voluntary.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Freedom4Me73986 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:26:28 GMT

How is a socialist workplace any different from a state? It's bureaucratic and involves 51% having total control of the 48%.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Jargon — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:01:12 GMT

Freedom4Me73986:

Collectivism is inherent in human psychology. Humans need other humans. So, to fight it would be cutting the branch you're sitting on. Better fight coercive or violent collectivism, than natural order (which is, in fact, that people join into collectives and cooperate).

Collectivism IS violence. I dont think you get that. A coop (what the mutualists promote) is IDENTICAL in many ways to a state. It is bureaucratic just like the state.

Pure individualism means everyone having total control over their own lives and property. It means always putting the individual before the collective and is always voluntary. Any form of collectivism becomes forceful. If you work w/ mutualists and/or socialists in their coops pretty soon 51% of the people will be controlling and stealing from the 49%. The only way out IMHO is to leave and focus on yourself.

F4M. If all collectives, hypothetically, were voluntary, then if an individual felt threatened by them, he could leave, thus securing his rights to his property. How is this statist or violent? Voluntarism means non-violence and consequently non-statism.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Freedom4Me73986 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:49:28 GMT

Collectivism is inherent in human psychology. Humans need other humans. So, to fight it would be cutting the branch you're sitting on. Better fight coercive or violent collectivism, than natural order (which is, in fact, that people join into collectives and cooperate).

Collectivism IS violence. I dont think you get that. A coop (what the mutualists promote) is IDENTICAL in many ways to a state. It is bureaucratic just like the state.

Pure individualism means everyone having total control over their own lives and property. It means always putting the individual before the collective and is always voluntary. Any form of collectivism becomes forceful. If you work w/ mutualists and/or socialists in their coops pretty soon 51% of the people will be controlling and stealing from the 49%. The only way out IMHO is to leave and focus on yourself.

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

MaikU — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:42:22 GMT

Collectivism is inherent in human psychology. Humans need other humans. So, to fight it would be cutting the branch you're sitting on. Better fight coercive or violent collectivism, than natural order (which is, in fact, that people join into collectives and cooperate).

Prove me wrong.. :D

Re: Is it truly possible to escape collectivism?

Freedom4Me73986 — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:12:35 GMT

It's as impossible to escape as individualism.

That's why my aspiration is to live away from civilization.