Political Theory

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

nhaag — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:47:46 GMT

No you are not dense.

I am not conferring to the arguments but to what the whole discussion is about. It is about is Ron Paul the good guy or a disguised statist(means the bad guy).

My Point is that wasting time and energy, and even worse, dividing the movement in some way (the libertarian movement that is), by acting like sectarians, doesn't bring any momentum for the common case, rather it splits us up into small groups that find more fun in fighting each other over details than acting together for a common goal.

Strategy is a way to reach ends, not ends in themselves. If we still discuss where true north is (the end) and can not agree, how can we develop a strategy? That goes for each libertarian flavor. There is one overarching goal called liberty and we should not waste any energy by declaring people that agree on the goal as right or wrong.

Hope that helps to explain it a bit.

Have a great time

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

JAlanKatz — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:04:18 GMT

nhaag:
On thing though seems clear to me, using energy to hamper allies, even if only temporary ones, is always a flawed strategy that can never bring about momentum toward the goal ... liberty.

Maybe I'm being dense. Can you tell me how this applies to the present discussion? I'm not being flip, I really do think you have something important to say, and I want to understand.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

nhaag — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:56:23 GMT

Reading through the thread and the arguments I remembered a great essay from Rothbard. You can find it here http://mises.org/story/2993 .

The two points I remember again are those about the passion for justice, which means a passion for "justice now" and the point about the difference between goals and strategies. The goal is the thing you have a passion for, the strategy is a way you picked to get there. Don't ever mix them or you loose both.

If Ron Paul will provide more justice, he is the man to go with, and I think he really is. If Obama provides more justice, he is the man to go with, which is just rethorical. I spare my comment on McCain.

On thing though seems clear to me, using energy to hamper allies, even if only temporary ones, is always a flawed strategy that can never bring about momentum toward the goal ... liberty.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

JAlanKatz — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:05:25 GMT

I'm glad Rockwell will be there to balance out evil statists like Norquist. Of course, we shouldn't need to balance anything at a Ron Paul convention, but oh well.

Who are these Virginia Independents? Their principles seem decent, although certainly not great - but could they have picked a candidate who represented them less than Bloomberg? Unless, of course, I missed the part where they endorse the elimination of all private property, nanny-state nitpicking on diet, tracking of all citizen movements at all times, and non-stop police searches.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

JAlanKatz — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:56:43 GMT

Spideynw:

Immigration laws are like drug laws, they are victimless crimes. I was very surprised when I first heard that Ron Paul was against illegal immigration. I too think it is inconsistent with his views. I think immigration laws should be abolished myself. However, that is far down on my list of things I would like to change, so I really do not care that he is against illegal immigration. You have to pick and choose your battles, and bringing all our troops home, ending all foreign aid, and opening up free trade would do so much for us that I think "illegal immigration" would become a moot point.

I agree about the need to prioritize. However, I put immigration laws near the top, just below war and civil liberties. Why? Mostly because immigration laws have become the excuse for checkpoints throughout the country, building walls (which will keep us in) and a general expanded police state. It's been the excuse for raids on companies, outrageous abuses at the borders, and demanding all kinds of information from employers. Immigration laws, in general, are not about immigration, but about control.

I think it's good that Paul didn't win, because Paul the candidate was much stronger than Paul the president would have been. As a candidate, he could call for abolishing the IRS, as a president he wouldn't have been able to achieve it. Ditto with the Fed. A candidate can be far more radical and idealistic, which is exactly what we needed.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

JCFolsom — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 08:31:29 GMT

Ron Paul was wrong on a lot of things. I disagree with him on some vitally important points. That being said, he seems to truly be a good man, doing his best to do what's right, and it saddens me greatly that this country did not take advantage of the opportunity presented by his candidacy.

Maybe it was for the best that he didn't win. I don't know. I seriously doubt he could have done much to help in the coming storm. Mayhap libertarian views would have been terribly smeared if he had been president. What I suspect, though, long-term strategy aside, is that his (our?) failure to get him elected will result in outrageous bloodshed that wouldn't have been otherwise. Many people will suffer far more than was necessary. And that somehow, the statists will still manage to spin the impending disasters to their advantage.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

Spideynw — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 04:02:23 GMT

Immigration laws are like drug laws, they are victimless crimes. I was very surprised when I first heard that Ron Paul was against illegal immigration. I too think it is inconsistent with his views. I think immigration laws should be abolished myself. However, that is far down on my list of things I would like to change, so I really do not care that he is against illegal immigration. You have to pick and choose your battles, and bringing all our troops home, ending all foreign aid, and opening up free trade would do so much for us that I think "illegal immigration" would become a moot point.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

liberty student — Wed, 20 Aug 2008 00:07:06 GMT

Apparently Lew is now going, and speaking.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022410.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022411.html

And the Virginia Independent Party drafted Ron Paul for vice-president, and got him on the ballot by exceeding the requirements 7 times over.

http://www.votejoinrun.us/

Maybe the "revolution" isn't over yet.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

JAlanKatz — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:01:52 GMT

liberty student:
I'd argue that Gary Johnson is about as libertarian as Jesse Ventura.

Granted. Notice that libertarian powerhouses simply aren't invited. No Anthony Gregory, no Lew Rockwell, no Walter Block, no Richard Ebeling, and none of their supporters. The RP people are getting as good at burning bridges as the LP is.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

liberty student — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:39:09 GMT

Well, Tucker Carlson will be there. We know that when he isn't pandering to the political establishment, he's a libertarian.

I'd argue that Gary Johnson is about as libertarian as Jesse Ventura.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

JAlanKatz — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:23:27 GMT

Andrew:
Is Lew Rockwell speaking there? If not, he should.

No, the event seems designed to pander to people who thought "well, I like Ron Paul on guns and taxes, but he's just insane if he says we shouldn't murder foreigners." Aside from Paul and Tom Woods, the most libertarian person speaking there seems to be Jesse Ventura. This event, in my mind, signifies the end of Ron Paul as a movement against the GOP agenda, and the beginning of its attempt to incorporate into conservativism. It makes me sick.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

scineram — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 03:35:17 GMT

C4L should throw weight behind the Taxachusetts ballot as a first step imo. Would earn publicity too.

And then deal with similar initiatives for good.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

liberty student — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:29:31 GMT

I'm pretty sure he isn't, and it is the loss of the C4L. I'm so pissed at them. They are squandering a lot of opportunities pandering to the wrong people.

Re: Ron Paul and Invisible Lines Drawn by Government Thugs

Andrew — Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:19:43 GMT

liberty student:

They also have that meathead Barry Goldwater Jr., whose most significant accomplishment is springig from Barry Goldwater's loins.

The people managing the C4L are terribly in over their heads. I read on the Ron Paul forums that it would be a conservative family event. Great idea if you want to alienate all of the young people who produced videos, canvassed hard and promoted Paul on the web and in polls.

Is Lew Rockwell speaking there? If not, he should.