Political Theory

Re: Origins of the State

Torsten — Tue, 26 Jun 2012 08:04:58 GMT

i'm in the same boat as you, with nothing to back up my assumptions, so any serious history would be something i'd love to look into.

But it sounds fargoingly plausible. The Henry Morgan book Ancient Society has also a list of historical steps in it. Of that has historical record, while some are only assumptions, but still make sense. I think one could also look at the division of labor emerging from an initially extended family. Of the elders then would have functions like judge, priest, military leader etc. While the rest would farm, craft or provide some services.

Re: Origins of the State

anarcken — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:58:32 GMT

Jonathan M. F. Catalán:

My hypothesis is that the state is an outgrowth of early efforts to provide security to tribes/communities. A small division of labor might imply a monopoly, and a monopoly on force leads to irregular growth (i.e. bureaucracy).

the essay "society are people" in frank chodorov's the rise and fall of society could be of interest. also in that book, "a state is born" is a biblical view of a state emerging. it's one of my favorite books. i highly recommend reading it in its entirety if you haven't yet done so.

i agree with your hypothesis, too. specialization didn't exclude things such as policing. now, i can't recall if i'm getting the following from my reading of the rise and fall of society; but it seems to me tribes used to rape and pillage other tribes for their belongings. then they decided the tribesmen from whom they stole could be exploited for further gain if they kept them alive (slavery). eventually humanity figured out paying people to do work will get it done more efficiently (capitalism). i think the state probably emerged during phase two, when civilizations started settling, due to the advent of agriculture and use of slavery. of course, i'm in the same boat as you, with nothing to back up my assumptions, so any serious history would be something i'd love to look into. it's too bad rothbard didn't stray far from american history.

Re: Origins of the State

dazed111 — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 18:05:06 GMT

i believe that the earliest states were outgrowths of the church. the reason is because you need to have an ideology in place before you can have violence. it cant work the other way around because even the most despotic states require a majorities consent

there was a book mentioned in a jeffrety tucker intervew called law and revolution which the interviewee said deals with the issue, i havent read it myself

Re: Origins of the State

Torsten — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 15:05:08 GMT

Oppenheimer's 'The State' is what you are looking for.

http://archive.org/details/stateitshistory00oppegoog

But I guess there are several others too.

Henry Morgan - Ancient society: http://archive.org/details/ancientsocietyo00morggoog

Karl Marx buddy Friedrich Engels stole a lot from this: http://archive.org/details/originoffamilypr00enge

Fustel de Coulanges - Ancient City : http://archive.org/details/ancientcityastu00coulgoog
By the same author for more historical background - Aryan Civilisation : http://archive.org/details/aryancivilizatio00fustuoft

Additionally insightful may be Caspar Bluntschli - Theory of the state: http://archive.org/details/theorystate01lodggoog
But this is more an overview of the origins.
According to the authors there were always some kinds of human organisation of authority and submission. They did however differ drastically from ethnicity and age.

What I would be interested in would be more literature on stateless societies and if there ever was a group of more then 1000 people that would qualify as being a stateless society. Perhaps what would come close to that would be the Bushmen, who were basically hunter gatherers. But still there have been authority figures and rules amongst them. They also got quite quickly absorbed into the (modern) South Africa state and even into the army as spoorsnyers.

At the moment it seems the general subjective value preference of people prefers state over non-state, despite lot's of quibbling by right-wingers and anarchists.

Re: Origins of the State

Autolykos — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:32:35 GMT

Minarchist:
If you mean that the State was justified in part by concepts of authority deriving from the family, then I agree. If you mean that the State literally arose from the family, that is obviously false, as the earliest States did not have literal fathers ruling extended family, but one group ruling another biologically unrelated group.

It depends on how you define "State", honestly. As I see it, the earliest States did have literal fathers ruling extended family.

Minarchist:
Curious, are you a fan of Molyneux?

To an extent, yes.

Re: Origins of the State

Autolykos — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 18:31:22 GMT

Jonathan M. F. Catalán:
The role of the state in Plato is not so much to "guide" or "instruct" or "instill" virtue, but to rule over men who cannot be virtuous (although, it has been a while since I last read Plato). Only a few can be virtuous, because they are "truth finders; i.e. philosopher kings. Government, then, is made up of rational, virtuous men who then command the non-virtuous in such a way that allows for a stable, functioning society.

This seems to go along with what I wrote earlier: "Anyway, the state could be (and was) seen as simply the administrative organization of the polis. IIRC, Plato thought that the ideal task of this administrative organization was to ensure 'virtue' to the fullest extent possible."

Ensuring "virtue" to the fullest extent possible doesn't mean making as many people as possible be "virtuous" in their hearts and souls, but rather that they simply act "virtuously" as much as possible. In other words, whether they act "virtuously" of their own free will or are constrained so that they become motivated (or have no choice but) to act "virtuously" makes no difference.

Re: Origins of the State

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:39:02 GMT

An example of why a good theory on the origins of the State is important: "On Merchants and Politicians."

The post deals with some of the themes in Daron Acemoglu's and James Robinson's Why Nations Fail. There is a contradiction between the benefits of inclusive political institutions, where power is diffused amongst the many, and the alleged benefits of greater centralization (which the authors themselves agree that these more often than not lead to absolutism and extractive institutions). They claim that without bureaucratic centralization there can be no meaningful economic growth; it seems to me that the relationship is the opposite (even given the data they present). Economic growth makes bureaucratization possible, since all bureaucracies are extractive by nature.

Re: Origins of the State

Minarchist — Sun, 13 May 2012 05:11:06 GMT

I don't think the state has its basis on systematic theft. Rather, I think it has its basis on systematic violation of self-ownership (of which theft is just one form). Where did this systematic violation of self-ownership come from? I think it came from the "authoritarian family" - any familial group where some people (typically parents) were presumed to own others (typically offspring).

Essentially, then, I see this notion of "fatherly power" as being the origin of the state.

If you mean that the State was justified in part by concepts of authority deriving from the family, then I agree. If you mean that the State literally arose from the family, that is obviously false, as the earliest States did not have literal fathers ruling extended family, but one group ruling another biologically unrelated group.

Curious, are you a fan of Molyneux?

Re: Origins of the State

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Sat, 12 May 2012 17:49:35 GMT

The role of the state in Plato is not so much to "guide" or "instruct" or "instill" virtue, but to rule over men who cannot be virtuous (although, it has been a while since I last read Plato). Only a few can be virtuous, because they are "truth finders; i.e. philosopher kings. Government, then, is made up of rational, virtuous men who then command the non-virtuous in such a way that allows for a stable, functioning society.

Re: Origins of the State

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Sat, 12 May 2012 17:42:52 GMT

Aristippus, great list thank you.

Re: Origins of the State

Autolykos — Sat, 12 May 2012 17:31:57 GMT

I haven't researched Ancient Greek law nearly as much, but from what I understand, it was similar to Roman law in this respect.

Ancient Greek city-states (poleis - singular polis) were tribal in origin and retained their tribal character throughout their history. Citizenship in a polis was typically closed, i.e. one had to be born in a polis to be considered a citizen of it. Roman citizenship was originally the same way. The plebes were originally resident aliens (called metoikoi in Athens).

Anyway, the state could be (and was) seen as simply the administrative organization of the polis. IIRC, Plato thought that the ideal task of this administrative organization was to ensure "virtue" to the fullest extent possible.

Re: Origins of the State

Aristophanes — Sat, 12 May 2012 17:00:54 GMT

Essentially, then, I see this notion of "fatherly power" as being the origin of the state.

Didn't Plato and the Greeks before him share ownership of women and children? Plato's origin of the state was to instruct virtue or at least that is what the state is for.

Re: Origins of the State

Autolykos — Sat, 12 May 2012 16:57:38 GMT

Minarchist:
The only conditions necessary for State formation that I see are (1) the existence of surpluses worth stealing, and (2) the existence of a sufficient imbalance of forces to allow one group to conquer another.

I don't think the state has its basis on systematic theft. Rather, I think it has its basis on systematic violation of self-ownership (of which theft is just one form). Where did this systematic violation of self-ownership come from? I think it came from the "authoritarian family" - any familial group where some people (typically parents) were presumed to own others (typically offspring).

In Roman law, for example, there's a concept known as patria potestas, which means "fatherly power". Quoting from Lacus Curtius:

Patria Potestas then signifies the power which a Roman father had over the persons of his children, grandchildren, and other descendants (filiifamilias, filiaefamilias), and generally all the rights which he had by virtue of his paternity. The foundation of the Patria Potestas was a Roman marriage, and the birth of a child gave it full effect [Matrimonium].

It does not seem that the Patria Potestas was ever viewed among the Romans as absolutely equivalent to the Dominica Potestas [power over slaves], or as involving ownership of the child; and yet the original notion of the Patria came very near to that of the Dominica Potestas. Originally the father had the power of life and death over his son as a member of his familia: he could sell him and so bring him into the mancipii causa ["the condition of (being) a slave"]; and he had the jus noxae dandi ["the right to deliver (one's child as compensation) for a crime"] as a necessary consequence of his being liable for the delicts of his child. He could also give his child in adoption, and emancipate a child at his pleasure.

Essentially, then, I see this notion of "fatherly power" as being the origin of the state.

Re: Origins of the State

Aristippus — Sat, 12 May 2012 04:03:53 GMT

Sorry, I forgot about this thread.

Carneiro 1970, 'A Theory of the Origin of the State', Science.
Claessen and Skalnik 1978, The Early State.
Claessen and Skalnik 1981, The Study of the State.
Cohen and Service 1978, Origins of the State.
Fried 1967, The Evolution of Political Society.
Gledhill, Bender, and Larsen 1988, State and Society: The Emergence and Development of Social Hierarchy and Political Centralization
Haas 1982, The Evolution of the Prehistoric State.
Trigger 2003, Understanding Early Civilizations.

You should be able to find an even larger bibliography within these works.

Re: Origins of the State

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Sat, 12 May 2012 03:50:51 GMT

Aristophanes wrote,

Oh, c'mon, no one else has any legitimate anthropological suggestions? No academic journals? Just stuff from this particular site?

Yea, I thought there would be more too.

For what it's worth, I'm looking for a historical study, not a theoretical one. I will look into Oppenheimer.