Political Theory

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

gotlucky — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:37:58 GMT

Buzz Killington:

Prove that my farm contributed enough poison to that well to seriously damage it when a hundred other farms are using the same chemicals.

I'll just repeat what I said before, as you completely sidestepped the question:

gotlucky:

Is it your well? If yes, then so what? If not, then whose well is it? If someone owns it, then you have just violated their property rights in the well. If no one owns it, then no one has any right to speak up about it.

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

Buzz Killington — Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:25:05 GMT

I'll check it out.

Is it your well? If yes, then so what? If not, then whose well is it? If someone owns it, then you have just violated their property rights in the well. If no one owns it, then no one has any right to speak up about it.

Prove that my farm contributed enough poison to that well to seriously damage it when a hundred other farms are using the same chemicals.

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

John James — Mon, 18 Jun 2012 00:01:33 GMT

Buzz Killington:
What if I own a farm and I'm using chemicals on it which flow through the ground and poison a nearby well?

(Just raising an objection for the discussion.)

I played this game with nirgrahamUK a while back.

In fact when this devil's advocate came up again a group got created just for this kind of discussion, but never actually got any activity. Definitely feel free to start a thread there. I'd be interested to see where it goes.

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

gotlucky — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:21:20 GMT

Is it your well? If yes, then so what? If not, then whose well is it? If someone owns it, then you have just violated their property rights in the well. If no one owns it, then no one has any right to speak up about it.

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

Buzz Killington — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 21:17:31 GMT

What if I own a farm and I'm using chemicals on it which flow through the ground and poison a nearby well?

(Just raising an objection for the discussion.)

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

Wheylous — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 15:32:27 GMT

Yes, yes. But we say that like it's a trump card, when the original essay has been widely criticized:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

I do not know of any original Austrian work on the subject.

Re: Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

Jonathan M. F. Catalán — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 13:43:41 GMT

Could this be used to explain why property rights are good for preserving species and forests?

Look up: tragedy of the commons.

Taxation proves property solves environmentalism?

Wheylous — Sun, 17 Jun 2012 12:37:53 GMT

Long explains a popular theory on the formation of the state:

Often the theory was that a sort of huntermarauder group conquers an agricultural group. In Molinari’s version of it what happens is: first, they just go and kill people and grab their stuff. And then gradually they figure out: well, maybe we should wait and not kill them because we want them to grow more stuff next time we come back. So instead, we’ll just come and grab their stuff and not kill them, and then they’ll grow some more stuff, and next year we’ll be back. And then they think, well, if we take all their stuff, then they won’t have enough seed corn to grow it, or they won’t have any incentive to grow it – they’ll just run away or something – so we won’t take everything.

Hence, when you can expect return profits, it's in your favor to not destroy everything.

Could this be used to explain why property rights are good for preserving species and forests?

Then, of course, there's the question of why government doesn't make other economically-good choices like not have regulation, but I think we might be able to base that on poor understanding of economics (while it's relatively simple to figure out that if you steal everything you won't have a return crop).