Political Theory

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Aristippus — Tue, 04 Sep 2012 00:07:40 GMT

how promoting anarchism (and capitalism, obviously) doesn't make that promoter an 'anarcho-capitalist'

Well I take 'anarcho-capitalism' to refer to a society where legal and protection services are contracted for, as proposed by David Friedman, Murray Rothbard, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Bob Murphy etc. This model does not apply to all stateless societies that have existed historically, and which also had property and trade. One therefore can argue for anarchism that is neither anarcho-communism, anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-primitivism nor anarcho-capitalism. Perhaps it can be called anarcho-traditionalism.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

abskebabs — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:41:53 GMT

Mises and Hayek could definitely read French. I think Hulsmann commented that Mises' French may have been better than his English before he started teaching in Geneva in the 30s. It is curious though, Mises, does not seem to have explicitly highlighted the contributions of the French liberals, let alone mention Molinari.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Graham Wright — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:03:06 GMT

CrazyCoot:

It's quite possible to have a Hobbesian outlook and not believe in Hobbesian solutions. If anything one of the strongest arguments for a stateless society is the nature of man. On a personal level I was convinced of the need for a market based society by the fact that I hold people (not individuals, but rather the group) in such low regard.

That's true, and it nullifies Tucker's point about why Mises didn't go as far as anarchism. I've always thought Mises wasn't quite an anarchist because he was unable to distinguish between 'an institution that enforces law' and 'a monopolist that enforces law'. Hence my question about Molinari, because that is earliest working model of anarchy I know about... and really the only one until the 1970s.

Apparently Molinari's article wasn't translated into English until 1977. I don't know if Mises or Hayek could read French or if it was translated into German at all. Rothbard does say "With this publication of Professor McCulloch's translation of Molinari's original article, let us hope that Molinari will now come to the attention of scholars and translators." That suggests to me that Mises and Hayek were probably not aware of his work.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Graham Wright — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 20:52:35 GMT

Aristippus:

I don't see how Hayek's views could've radically changed from ordoliberalist to anywhere near anarcho-capitalist though.

Well I don't think anyone was saying that he was an 'anarcho-capitalist'. In The Fatal Conceit he described a traditionalist anarchism, based on evolving customary and common law which he believed would most likely employ market exchange as a means of peace and prosperity. I don't think this is too far from the conservatism he seems to have held across his lifetime.

Thanks, I will have to check that book out. I'm not sure what you mean by promotes anarchism, or how promoting anarchism (and capitalism, obviously) doesn't make that promoter an 'anarcho-capitalist', but I guess I'll have to find out for myself.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Aristippus — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 04:46:52 GMT

I don't see how Hayek's views could've radically changed from ordoliberalist to anywhere near anarcho-capitalist though.

Well I don't think anyone was saying that he was an 'anarcho-capitalist'. In The Fatal Conceit he described a traditionalist anarchism, based on evolving customary and common law which he believed would most likely employ market exchange as a means of peace and prosperity. I don't think this is too far from the conservatism he seems to have held across his lifetime.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

No2statism — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 04:22:33 GMT

Didn't Mises help a fascist govt out or something?

People change over the course of their lives, but I don't see how Hayek's views could've radically changed from ordoliberalist to anywhere near anarcho-capitalist though.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Malachi — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:46:19 GMT

[/hijack] edit

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

John James — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:37:30 GMT

But are Mises and Hayek just creatures of the mind as well?

I guess now that they're dead that's not so easy to answer. Deep stuff man. Deep.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Malachi — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:31:09 GMT

If youre a methodological dualist then ideologies are basically akin to mythological creatures, they are both simply cognitive phenomena.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

John James — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:28:10 GMT

nirgrahamUK:
Spillting hairs about how to interpret Hayek or Mises as approximating towards anarchism is an example of pointless inwards looking scholastic boondoggling, like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Its cool to have an opinion, but come on, really.

Who are you talking to? Tucker?

I would be inclined to suggest that equating Hayek and Mises and their ideological leanings to mythical creatures doing impossible things, is kind of a stretch...but then again I assume Tucker believes in angels so I'm not so sure.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

nirgrahamUK — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:50:17 GMT

Spillting hairs about how to interpret Hayek or Mises as approximating towards anarchism is an example of pointless inwards looking scholastic boondoggling, like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Its cool to have an opinion, but come on, really.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

CrazyCoot — Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:45:16 GMT

It's quite possible to have a Hobbesian outlook and not believe in Hobbesian solutions. If anything one of the strongest arguments for a stateless society is the nature of man. On a personal level I was convinced of the need for a market based society by the fact that I hold people (not individuals, but rather the group) in such low regard.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Aristippus — Sun, 02 Sep 2012 22:58:48 GMT

Hayek's final work, The Fatal Conceit, promotes anarchism more than any work of Mises.

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

Graham Wright — Sun, 02 Sep 2012 22:50:04 GMT

Yes, that is why Jeffrey's comment stuck out to me. I don't know Hayek very well, but it seems to me that his views changed significantly throughout his life, much more so than Mises or Rothbard. If as an old man he really said he would be a libertarian anarchist if he were a younger man, what can that mean except to say that he's now a libertarian anarchist but he's too old / tired to revise his life's work?

Re: Jeff Tucker: Hayek was more anarchistic than Mises

John James — Sun, 02 Sep 2012 22:06:14 GMT

I thought it was made pretty clear by Block and others that Hayek was an obvious ordoliberal. Although I've heard it argued here that he became less and less statist as his life went on, and was essentially anarchist by the time of his death. I haven't read enough of his late stuff to form an opinion on that.

other relevant threads:

Hayekian anarchism?

Hayekian Anarchism

Hans Hoppe on Friedrich Hayek