Political Theory

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Anenome — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 03:42:10 GMT

#2 would result in civil war, that's all. Not lasting change.

It would allow the intellectuals to brand all libertarian / anarch strains of thought as terrorist and set the movement back a hundred years.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Jargon — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 03:22:58 GMT

I guess. We would just have to see how the propaganda of the monarch would hold up against the propaganda of the elites. I think something that would help especially would be if the first act of the monarch would be to arrest characters such as Jamie Dimon, Lloyd Blankfein, John Corzine and other characters of dubious reputation. Though going after the top figures wouldn't do much (because the public doesn't really know about them) taking out the CEO's of the big banks would grant you enormous credit with the American public, especially if it weren't accompanied by a panic inducing communist agenda. Having that be your first act would be enormously popular, you'd be like the 2nd Andrew Jackson.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Aristippus — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 03:07:55 GMT

But I'm not only talking about the economic elite, but also the general populace, who already demand an interventionist state and can be spurred into even greater opposition by establishment propaganda and funds.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Jargon — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 02:09:13 GMT

Seizing power and using the military to institute changes that the economic elite find highly undesirable?

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Aristippus — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 02:07:40 GMT

What about it? I don't see how it's analogous to what we've been talking about.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Jargon — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 02:05:39 GMT

What about Tsar Ivan IV (my avatar). He completely thwarted the landed nobility by demanding higher taxes, military service and ultimately seizing their lands using the power of the military and they were powerless to stop him.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Aristippus — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 01:49:59 GMT

It's true that 20 years of libertarianism would be somewhat difficult to reverse, but I'd be surprised if any such dictator could have even 20 months to implement such policies, especially since the initial period would be more difficult economically than even the statist status quo.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

RagnarD — Sat, 03 Nov 2012 01:22:50 GMT

I'd take the benevolent dictator, and I agree with Minarchist, the example given to the populace by 20 years of libertarianism would be hard to quickly reverse.

Back before I realised how corrupt our government/politicians are I used to get so angry hearing talk about spreading democracy, making nations safe for democracy etc, thinking that they were erroneously saying "democracy", while meaning " freedom, peace and prosperity, or capitalism". I always thought, all we have to do is implement it ourselves and give an example to the world. I now realise that example is exactly what they don't want.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

fountainhead — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:57:22 GMT

@Aristippus

Yes, I mainly had 19th century U.S. in mind. And you're right, there's a lot more mooching and looting going on now. People have forgotten. But I guess it all depends what the OP was including in his assumptions. Is he just asking theoretically, what would we prefer? Or does the dictator actually have to deal with the current real world population? That could be a bit tricky, I agree, lol.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Aristippus — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:45:59 GMT

My point includes the fact that he wouldn't have control of the military, either.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Jargon — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:42:39 GMT

What if the dictatorship installed wasn't actually libertarian, but authoritarian in regards to political opposition. Meaning all of those 3letter agencies are still removed, but the King institutes his own secret police to spy on political opposition and made it a crime to conspire against his authority?

EDIT: But Aristippus, as any libertarian should know, power is not money but power. The elite could conspire all they wanted but if the King maintained authority over the military, there would be nothing that could effectively be done against him. It would also be simple for him to arrange an ideologically zealous libertarian to take up his mantle after his death in the case of assassination.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Aristippus — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:42:14 GMT

I assume you're talking about the USA in the 19th century or thereabouts. The situation is completely different today: there all kinds of rent-seekers who thrive upon the parasitism afforded to them by the existence of the bloated bureaucratic state. There are entrenched elites who wield significant power and seek to keep it that way for their own profit. Just look at Greece, Spain, France, the UK. Their governments make insignficant spending cuts, cuts that are tiny compared to overall spending, and there are all kinds of demonstrations and riots, and a media campaign against such so-called 'austerity'.

In the period you're talking about, taxation and government spending were tiny and very few if any lived off government largesse. Today the opposite is the case, and many would fight tooth and claw to retain their attempts to live at the expense of everyone else - and more importantly they would have the support of the wealthy and powerful in doing so.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Minarchist — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:40:10 GMT

@Autolykos

Fair enough. I was just making the point that democracy is no protection against tyranny; millions of people voted for national socialism.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

SkepticalMetal — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:38:44 GMT

Ahem, Hitler's "election" was not entirely bloodless.

Re: Political Power and Libertarianism

Autolykos — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 23:36:25 GMT

Minarchist:
FYI, Hitler was elected.

No, Hitler himself was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg. The Nazi Party was elected plurality of seats in the Reichstag before that.