Political Theory

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:57:33 GMT

OK, I think it's time I put this thread to sleep.

-Jon

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

hayekianxyz — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:55:30 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Not what you thought it was. Try reading; it helps.

Do correct me then, please.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

hayekianxyz — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:54:35 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Rather, you've missed the point. You're trying to paint a picture of something which doesn't exist. Drug users aren't being coddled or protected; they're being jailed and ostracized. Look at the prison populations! I have FACTS on my side. What do you have?

And? You still miss the point that as Nock says, every increase in state power leads to a decrease in "social power", in which ostracism is included. Now, I'm sure you wouldn't deny that currently the state has a fair bit of power? Hence, it follows that ostracism isn't as effective as it would, in fact the jailings you mention are an example of the corrosion of social power. So yes, they're is some degree of ostracism at present, it doesn't mean that it wouldn't be more effective in a free society.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Want to see my flew my emuscles?

Go.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:43:14 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
The state and god are two sides of the same coin.

MacFall:
In that case, you would have the right to force people not to worship God.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Non sequitur.

MacFall:
Yes, quite. Because the state and belief in god are not, in fact, the same thing at all.

Yeah, they are. They're both products of mysticism and fantasy. Both rely on brainwashing and other inculcation. When you suggest to a True Believer that whichever one isn't necessary/doesn't exist, you get the same response. Both are forms of parents-writ-large.

So please: keep proving me correct. Your responses indicate an embarrassment as well.

MacFall:
The fact of the existence of anarchist theists disproves the idea that statism is inherent in theism, or follows inherently from it.

And who's saying anything of that sort? Certainly not me. Must be that mouse in your pocket.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

MacFall — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:33:42 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

Knight_of_BAAWA:
The state and god are two sides of the same coin.

MacFall:
In that case, you would have the right to force people not to worship God.

Non sequitur.

Yes, quite. Because the state and belief in god are not, in fact, the same thing at all. They may cross paths, even frequently. But then so does every other imaginable institution in our current, statist society.

The fact of the existence of anarchist theists disproves the idea that statism is inherent in theism, or follows inherently from it. Unless you're going to tell me that I don't really believe in God since I'm an anarchist. But that would be you telling me what I believe - which, I hope you'll agree, is stupid.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:30:38 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Nope. Do you think you could stop concocting strawmen?

GilesStratton:
But I'm not

But you are.

GilesStratton:
your argument was

Not what you thought it was. Try reading; it helps.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:29:44 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Yeah, drug users have no social stigma at all, do they? I mean, they're never ostracized now. Never refused jobs. Never put in prison. Oh wait.........

GilesStratton:
How you miss the point...

Rather, you've missed the point. You're trying to paint a picture of something which doesn't exist. Drug users aren't being coddled or protected; they're being jailed and ostracized. Look at the prison populations! I have FACTS on my side. What do you have?

GilesStratton:
I'm going to pretend that I don't really hate gays because they make me feel like less of a man, even though that's my real reason for it. I'm also going to pretend that drug users are never ostracized and never jailed by the state, even though the facts of reality show that they are. I'm going to throw out hysterical nonsense and hope no one calls me on it.

Want to keep playing that game? I can do it better. You'd better end it or I will push every one of your buttons and cause you to melt down. I am incredibly good at learning people's "tells". You've been warned.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Except that I'm not. Do you think you could start being intellectually honest?

GilesStratton:
But you are.

Being intellectually honest? Of course I am. You, OTOH....

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

scineram — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:28:38 GMT

What theism is to statism is statism to moralism.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

hayekianxyz — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:21:57 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Nope. Do you think you could stop concocting strawmen?

But I'm not, your argument was you get the same reaction from theists as you do statists, ergo statism and theism are two sides of the same coin.

That just doesn't follow logically and if it did it would imply that if I got the same response from a statist as I do an anarchist, in defending their positions, the two would be the same. Which is silly.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

hayekianxyz — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:20:26 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

Yeah, drug users have no social stigma at all, do they? I mean, they're never ostracized now. Never refused jobs. Never put in prison. Oh wait.........

How you miss the point...

Knight_of_BAAWA:

That's what I'm going to pretend you meant, because it creates a strawman that I can attack easily. It also creates quite a nice emotional response from everybody else.

Fixed for you.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Except that I'm not. Do you think you could start being intellectually honest?

But you are.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:16:06 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
And you should know that most of the people I talk to about how the state shouldn't exist are atheists. And I get the same psychological rationalizations from them as I do from christians. So please: be a good lad and consider the question carefully.

GilesStratton:
So, what, it somehow follows that because you get the answers from two groups of people (this is assuming you do, which I doubt) the two things they defend are the same?

Nope. Do you think you could stop concocting strawmen?

Hint: you're losing badly. Quit while you're behind.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:14:45 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Who's protecting them now? Certainly not the government, since there are no laws prohibiting the denial of hiring drug addicts. Why do you think employers are allowed to do drug testing, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

I think you're just projecting.

GilesStratton:
I don't, the government in every action weakens "social power" to use Nock's term.

Yeah, drug users have no social stigma at all, do they? I mean, they're never ostracized now. Never refused jobs. Never put in prison. Oh wait.........

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Because we all know that gays want to ruin families and make everyone gay, right?

GilesStratton:
Likewise, we all know that I actually said that, right?

We all know that's what you meant.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Puh-leaze. Do you think you could, perhaps, maybe, stop rationalizing your hatred?

GilesStratton:
Do you think you could, perhaps, may, stop posting straw men?

Except that I'm not. Do you think you could start being intellectually honest?

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:12:17 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
The state and god are two sides of the same coin.

MacFall:
In that case, you would have the right to force people not to worship God.

Non sequitur.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

hayekianxyz — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:06:11 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

And you should know that most of the people I talk to about how the state shouldn't exist are atheists. And I get the same psychological rationalizations from them as I do from christians. So please: be a good lad and consider the question carefully.

So, what, it somehow follows that because you get the answers from two groups of people (this is assuming you do, which I doubt) the two things they defend are the same? It just doesn't follow.

If it did it would mean that if two people defended the market and the state in the same way the two would be the same, which would be absurd.

Re: Computer nerds and losers in the Libertarian movement

hayekianxyz — Sat, 15 Nov 2008 20:03:00 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

Who's protecting them now? Certainly not the government, since there are no laws prohibiting the denial of hiring drug addicts. Why do you think employers are allowed to do drug testing, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

I think you're just projecting.

I don't, the government in every action weakens "social power" to use Nock's term. In practical terms this means that social ostracism simple isn't viable under the state, whereas in a free society it would be, it's that simple. Then there's today's youth culture which glorifies drug use, and the state intervention in the family which stops the most effective way of preventing drug use by children. In today's society, the state has detatched responsibilities from actions, in all areas of the life, drug use is just one example of this.

So yes, the state does protect drug users.

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Because we all know that gays want to ruin families and make everyone gay, right?

Likewise, we all know that I actually said that, right?

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Puh-leaze. Do you think you could, perhaps, maybe, stop rationalizing your hatred?

Do you think you could, perhaps, may, stop posting straw men?