Political Theory

Re: What is "private property"?

Jon Irenicus — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 19:12:19 GMT

It has, and all one can say is that Mises does not understand market anarchism.

Re: What is "private property"?

Jonatan K — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 09:27:40 GMT

Alright, it took me a while.

Had the following been discussed on the forum, and if so, where?

"The anarchists overlook the undeniable fact that some people are either too narrow-minded or too weak to adjust themselves spontaneously to the conditions of social life. Even if we admit that every sane adult is endowed with the faculty of realizing the good of social cooperation and of acting
accordingly, there still remains the problem of the infants, the aged, and the insane. We may agree that he who acts antisocially should be considered mentally sick and in need of care. But as long as not all are cured, and as long as there are infants and the senile, some provision must be taken lest
they jeopardize society. An anarchistic society would be exposed to the mercy of every individual. Society cannot exist if the majority is not ready to hinder, by the application or threat of violent action, minorities from destroying the social order. This power is vested in the state or government."

Mises, Human Action VIII Human Society

Re: What is "private property"?

Heartless Voluntaryist — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:11:45 GMT

Jonatan K:
As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

The state does provide an incentive to continue antisemitic discrimination. In a free market a business would have an incentive to not discriminate against a potential customer, but if they can get money from the state, not to mention regulatory favors that hinder competition, there is not as strong an incentive to run the most productive business model. I think we can assume that if antisemitic practices continue, not only will those people remain antisemitic, others will adopt those prejudices after observing it as acceptable behavior in others. So yes, the state does contribute to antisemitism as well as other prejudices. I don't see what this has to do with the subject at hand though.

Re: What is "private property"?

Fluery — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 04:01:00 GMT

Referring back to the OP, how exactly is intellectual property legitimate property? I don't understand it. Lets take the example of music sharing. My friend has an album he would like to share with me. We make a copy, and now we both have the album. We haven't stolen the creator's property - he still has the original. Could somebody explain why (or if) that is wrong?

Re: What is "private property"?

Jonatan K — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:24:37 GMT

liberty student:

You're in no position to judge me. Your country is a parasite, living off of foreign aid, and then using that money to perpetuate apartheid. It's sickening how you try to play victim when you encourage a system of violence and oppression. So much so, you want to find "better" ways to fund it.

All right. Just explain ,e how this is connected to usage of property by not owner but a ward, and I'll apologize for mentioning the word "goverment", alright?

Re: What is "private property"?

liberty student — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:16:43 GMT

Jonatan K:
Of course I did!! You claim the goverment is the root of all evil, but claim I'm irrational evader when I make cases for sources of evil which is not goverment!

Source?

Jonatan K:
Well, saying goverment is evil has nothing to do with the idea of wardship I presented in the begining of the tread. I didn't seek opoinions upon legitimacy of goverments, nor of its moral values. I merely suggested non-fiscal policy for running structures.

Why would you fund something you consider immoral?

I think you're lost. This is the Austrian school, anti-war and minarchist at least, anarchist at best. "Non-fiscal" is code for facism.

Maybe you should find another forum to complain about Islamic fundamentalism and play your victim games. You're not going to get much play with that nonsense here.

Jonatan K:
Keep bashing me for it as long as oyu pay your taxes! Thats the "rational' thing to do.

You're in no position to judge me. Your country is a parasite, living off of foreign aid, and then using that money to perpetuate apartheid. It's sickening how you try to play victim when you encourage a system of violence and oppression. So much so, you want to find "better" ways to fund it.

Re: What is "private property"?

Jonatan K — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:06:20 GMT

liberty student:

Jonatan K:
So I asked about american anti-semitism and how the state creates it. The answer:

What you did, was a familiar tactic, I've seen it dozens of times online. In the midst of a losing argument, you tried to say "I am Jewish, and not agreeing with me, or allowing my perspective, means you might be anti-semitic"

Anti-semitism has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's shameful you would play that card in the house of Mises and Rothbard.

Jonatan K:
I just can't see how what happened in 30ies in Gernamy connected to what's going on nowadays in US (assumig that what happens today is connected to some previous events).

I never said anything about anti-semitism in America. You did. You are trying to pass of a canard.

My point was that government enabled anti-semitism. Governments are capable of genocide.

Of course I did!! You claim the goverment is the root of all evil, but claim I'm irrational evader when I make cases for sources of evil which is not goverment!

liberty student:

Oh, so you're totally irrational. OK.

Well, saying goverment is evil has nothing to do with the idea of wardship I presented in the begining of the tread. I didn't seek opoinions upon legitimacy of goverments, nor of its moral values. I merely suggested non-fiscal policy for running structures. Keep bashing me for it as long as oyu pay your taxes! Thats the "rational' thing to do.

Re: What is "private property"?

liberty student — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:26:05 GMT

Jonatan K:
So I asked about american anti-semitism and how the state creates it. The answer:

What you did, was a familiar tactic, I've seen it dozens of times online. In the midst of a losing argument, you tried to say "I am Jewish, and not agreeing with me, or allowing my perspective, means you might be anti-semitic"

Anti-semitism has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's shameful you would play that card in the house of Mises and Rothbard.

Jonatan K:
I just can't see how what happened in 30ies in Gernamy connected to what's going on nowadays in US (assumig that what happens today is connected to some previous events).

I never said anything about anti-semitism in America. You did. You are trying to pass of a canard.

My point was that government enabled anti-semitism. Governments are capable of genocide.

Re: What is "private property"?

Juan — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:17:01 GMT

Jonatan K:

LS:
Not on a mass scale. For that sort of evil, you need organization. Unless you believe man's natural state is animal. And even then, animals usually show more dignity than some humans.
And that organisation is goverment?

Certainly. Only government is capable of organizing mass murder, rape and property destruction on a vast scale. Private criminals can never do the amount of damage government does. The funny (or rather sad) thing is that all warring factions claim that they have the moral high ground while their enemies are 'barbarians', and yet all sides commit the very same crimes.

Re: What is "private property"?

liberty student — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:16:37 GMT

Jonatan K:

And that organisation is goverment?

Yes.

Jonatan K:

You avoid the subject, unless you consider US goverment to be Nazi "democratically elected" government. I asked about anti-semitism in US, that in some mysterious way connected according to you, to US goverment. Please explain.

There is anti-semitism everywhere. There is racism, sexism everywhere too. Jews don't have a monopoly on sorrow or oppression. I'm not going to play the anti-semitism game, been there, done that. I'm avoiding the subject, because it leads only to your irrational argument that war and destruction is justified by your perceived past racial victimhood.

Re: What is "private property"?

Nitroadict — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:07:18 GMT

Jonatan K:

Nitroadict:

You can spin that all you want, but LS is correct.

Let me tertrace the arguments a bit

liberty student:

The reality is, if you take murder, theft, terrorism, kidnapping, rape, destruction, racism and condense them into one institution, the state is that institution.

So I asked about american anti-semitism and how the state creates it. The answer:

liberty student:

Jonatan K:

As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

I will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi "democratically elected" government.

I just can't see how what happened in 30ies in Gernamy connected to what's going on nowadays in US (assumig that what happens today is connected to some previous events).

LS is right that today there is antisemitism in US beacuse the democracy?

Nice evade, I'm not going to repost my previous post. I said LS was correct regarding that the Nazi's were democratically elected (& by normal voting behavior), that is all. I also said nothing regarding anti-semitism, so I'm sorry I couldn't put an opinion down for your own manipulation.

Stop extending what I said to other arguments made by LS ( as well as putting words in my mouth) because it's not going to work in strengthening your house of cards.

Re: What is "private property"?

Juan — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:05:03 GMT

LS is right that today there is antisemitism in US beacuse the democracy ?

What do you mean by "antisemitism in the US" ?

Re: What is "private property"?

Jonatan K — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:58:19 GMT

Nitroadict:

You can spin that all you want, but LS is correct.

Let me tertrace the arguments a bit

liberty student:

The reality is, if you take murder, theft, terrorism, kidnapping, rape, destruction, racism and condense them into one institution, the state is that institution.

So I asked about american anti-semitism and how the state creates it. The answer:

liberty student:

Jonatan K:

As for (2), Nation, State and Goverment somehow blend into one piece. You want to tell me that the root of american anti-semitism is American Goverment?

I will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi "democratically elected" government.

I just can't see how what happened in 30ies in Gernamy connected to what's going on nowadays in US (assumig that what happens today is connected to some previous events).

LS is right that today there is antisemitism in US beacuse the democracy?

Re: What is "private property"?

Nitroadict — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:45:14 GMT

Jonatan K:

liberty student:

II will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi "democratically elected" government.

You avoid the subject, unless you consider US goverment to be Nazi "democratically elected" government. I asked about anti-semitism in US, that in some mysterious way connected according to you, to US goverment. Please explain.

I believe LS is referring to the recent Swiss study on how normal voting behavior in a democratically elected government is what provided the National Socialist Party (a.k.a The Nazi Party) in Germany the edge in attaining political (& ultimately infamous & vile) power here:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/front/Vote_for_Hitler_normal_in_economic_context.html?siteSect=105&sid=9795885&cKey=1222879180000&ty=st

You can spin that all you want, but LS is correct.

Re: What is "private property"?

Jonatan K — Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:54:19 GMT

liberty student:

Jonatan K:

Alright. in anarchy there will be no murder, theft, rape and kidnaping. That is rational? I give this forum more credit.

Not on a mass scale. For that sort of evil, you need organization. Unless you believe man's natural state is animal. And even then, animals usually show more dignity than some humans.

And that organisation is goverment?

liberty student:

II will tell you that the root of Nazi Anti-semitism was Nazi "democratically elected" government.

You avoid the subject, unless you consider US goverment to be Nazi "democratically elected" government. I asked about anti-semitism in US, that in some mysterious way connected according to you, to US goverment. Please explain.