Political Theory

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Solid_Choke — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:32:53 GMT

Jon Irenicus:

A is A!

There you go again using that bourgeois logic.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Jon Irenicus — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:03:47 GMT

A is A!

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

ThorsMitersaw — Thu, 04 Dec 2008 10:01:39 GMT

fail troll is fail

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

nhaag — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:49:43 GMT

Cesar:
I think authority prevents humans from killing each other and you think otherwise. Our Socio-Economic life reflects our only universal nature, "imperfection (not like nature).

And here, the rubber hits the road.

If you believe, that humans are "not like nature" than everything is open to do. Yet, how could you pretend that a part of nature is at the same time not a part of nature? Humans are as much part of nature as stones, Oxygen and birds. You believe that humans can only be held as slaves by some superhuman and supernatural masters. Sorry, this fallacy has been refuted long time ago and even if it is still used to justify violence and coercion it is hogwash or should I say Hobbes-wash.

If there were "natural" masters and "natural" slaves, there would be no human race, but a slave race and a master race. Well, I don't tell you not to believe that, but if you do, chances are good you will struggle a lot and eventually you get the violence, you are willing to put on the so called "slaves", back from the so called "slaves".

History has shown what laughable pieces of self pity, and self denial only to survive, so called masters turn out to be once they are stripped of their power. If you do not believe me than have a look at the pittyful "Masters" standing before the nuremberg trial. Or to Karaziks ... or whatever the name of that insane serbian psychologist (didn't you mention something about psychologists further up in the threat)... is. Once the masters have lost their power and the so-called "slaves" can see that the emperor has no clothes, they become whining, self-pittying creatures not worth to even spit at.

Have a great time

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

a_goedker — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 02:57:33 GMT

You sound pretty confused there. perhaps put the pipe down and take a nap?

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Jaq Phule — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 01:08:05 GMT

Jon Irenicus:

Conclusion: you're a dull little troll with too much time on your hands. Stop wasting ours.

A well-fed troll always returns to the hand.

Conclusion? Folks, stop feeding the damn troll.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Jon Irenicus — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:17:48 GMT

Conclusion: you're a dull little troll with too much time on your hands. Stop wasting ours.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Telpeurion — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:49:17 GMT

He is correct in assuming that paleo-liberalism seeks an end to protectionism, raise the standard of living for ALL people, and bring about equality under the law. Thus the ideals behind socialism are very similar. THESE ARE 'ENDS' PEOPLE, NOT THE MEANS. The difference is in how one goes about achieving ones' ends. The means are the most important, one appears to work, the other does not.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

JParker — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:32:14 GMT

Cesar:
I believe we can have all schools private as well as all hospitals privates but let society pay for them.

Cesar, private institutions mean private money.

Cesar:
In a free market only those willing and able to buy and sell get the goods. By having universal healthcare and education we have just come together and spread the risk of not being able to pay for them.

If you are not willing to pay for healthcare, then you should not get healthcare. Its so simple. If you value other things more than health insurance, then no healthcare for you. Or you can always throw yourself upon the mercy of people, and charity. I beleive the church plays a big role in this, and it would be much larger if the government wasnt in the way. If you truely needed healthcare in a free society, and you were truely unable to pay for it, it would be provided. But only by those who wish to provide it, not by everyone. I oppose taxation. But would I freely donate the 40% of my money the government takes away to private charities? Maybe not all of it, but a lot of it, yes. Because I beleive in helping people, but through my FREE CHOICE, not through government coersion and guns.

Cesar:
We should run Healthcare and Education like the Military.

Give them limitless budgets, allow them to never have to account for where the money goes, hide everything behind the wall of 'national security', lost BILLIONS of dollars a year due to bad accounting, REQUIRE that people register to be forced against their will to join, require that to participate in the activity they may not have freely chosen, they must surrender all of their rights in order to better serve the masses?

Cesar, you want a government run like the military, go back to Cuba. Fidel will die soon anyway, they need another crazy dictator and it seems you fit the bill from an ideologial point of view. I'm sorry I'm being so harsh, but I tire of your banter.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

kiba — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:26:49 GMT

Cesar:

In a free market only those willing and able to buy and sell get the goods. By having universal healthcare and education we have just come together and spread the risk of not being able to pay for them.

We should run Healthcare and Education like the Military.

Everything in the US arsenal is supplied by private for profit companies, this creates innovation and competition and yet we can have the best army, best navy, best airforce.

I believe we can have all schools private as well as all hospitals privates but let society pay for them.

Not to mentioned that we have some of the most expensive military in the world that's also quite ineffective when pitted against Iraqi insurgency. Yeah, the military is pretty much a black hole for society's wealth.

Some 80 mercenaries are more effective in destroying a bandit of ten thousands than thousands of United Nations peacekeepers, who didn't do much of anything to stop the blood diamond wars. Government will waste your money like nobody's business.

I also wonder why we should force everybody to pay. Are charity empires that provide education and health to those who can't pay not good enough for you? The for-profit corporations is not the only thing that exist in a free market society.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Cesar — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:14:28 GMT

In a free market only those willing and able to buy and sell get the goods. By having universal healthcare and education we have just come together and spread the risk of not being able to pay for them.

We should run Healthcare and Education like the Military.

Everything in the US arsenal is supplied by private for profit companies, this creates innovation and competition and yet we can have the best army, best navy, best airforce.

I believe we can have all schools private as well as all hospitals privates but let society pay for them.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

Cesar — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:08:02 GMT

auctionguy10

I dont see how having no govt at all will make it any better.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

kiba — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 02:00:21 GMT

Cesar:

You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument.

Nations with the best Education and Healthcare do so far away from anything libertarian.

A diamond is piece of nothing yet people die for them everyday because of their value, a value given by free market. But If you are in a desert, thirsty, you would pay whatever it takes for water.

It just means that the whole problem is not free market or supply and demand, it is about scarcity. We just value things according to their scarcity. And the well being of society can not be left to scarcity, specially education and healthcare.

I consider it a crime which is solved by everyone paying for it.

Solid_Choke:

Cesar:

Sure thing only thing is in Cuba I had Education and Healthcare, under your Libertarianism I would have neither.

Do you not have access to food since we don't have a "Universal Food" program? What about clothes?

The US have the best healthcare system in the world in term of quality and yet it was semi-private in comparsion with countries with even more socialized programs. Wanna bet that it can do even better in the free market?

Also you can't get rid of scarcity. Otherwise you basically destoryed the science of economic.

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

eliotn — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:57:57 GMT

Cesar:
You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument.

Well, not everything can be supplied in any socio-economic system due to the problem of scarcity. A free market, however, has been shown to be the best in solving the economic problems we face.

Cesar:
A diamond is piece of nithing yet people die for them everyday because of their value, a value given by free market. But If you are in a desert, thirsty, you would pay whatever it takes for water.

Well, that is because of subjective theory of value. There are people who value diamonds very highly, and are willing to trade things totaling a high value to obtain them. Also, they are scarce, so only these high-bidders can obtain them. However, in a desert, when a person is about to die of dehydration, his value scale changes to where water is a very high priority.

Cesar:
We just value things according to their scarcity.

No, people value things according to how much they anticipate it will satisfy them. A good can be very limited, and still, nobody will buy it.

Cesar:
And the well being of society can not be left to scarcity, specially education and healthcare.

It is precisely the problem of scarcity that acts as a barrier to provide things to satisfy people. It is the problem of scarcity that necessitates human action. Why isn't everything a condition of human welfare, like the oxygen we breathe. Scarcity exists regardless of the economic system imposed.

Someone, teach Cesar some Economics 101!

Re: Communism and Libertarianism are virtually the same.

auctionguy10 — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:51:50 GMT

Cesar:

You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument.

But since there's no nation with a truly free-market, how can you prove it? Not only that- but "great healthcare" comes at a great cost for those socialistic countries- just as the US having the most powerful military in the world also comes at a great cost.

Why wouldn't you have education and healthcare under a free-market? If people want those- then they will get it. The United States does not have a free-market healthcare or educational system- and we see very clearly how poor many public schools are.

I also think its insulting to say that everyone here is a bunch of rich kids. I come from a very poor family that eventually moved here from Pakistan. I got interested in Austrian economics after looking at how corrupt the Pakistani government- and eventually, all governments are.