Political Theory

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Zach — Fri, 23 Jan 2009 02:50:04 GMT

Could we pretend to be non-Libertarians and support it?

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Brave5 — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:49:04 GMT

No one should support deficit spending. However, there could be times where a small % deficit might occur.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Zac Singleton — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:29:28 GMT

Who was it that said "The real burden of government on society is how much it spends, NOT how much it taxes"?

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

meambobbo — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:17:24 GMT

I think the main argument against deficit spending as a means to collapse the state is in envisioning what will replace it. the answer is anarchy, not anarchism.

society will become accustomed to decades and decades worth of wealth beyond what they can produce. when this is suddenly taken away, will the masses become humble and virtuous? of course not, they will seek a new organization through which they can consume more ends than they have the means to produce, or they will directly resort to crime.

This generally leads to a "strong man" government, who pushes for imperial plunder.

The best path to fight the government is maximizing individual freedom, particularly by advancing gray markets.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Stephen — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 02:38:54 GMT

krazy kaju:
Has anyone here ever heard of the "starve the beast" strategy? The general idea is to cut taxes even if you can't tax spending, if only because the increased debt will force the government to cut spending in the future. Is this a good libertarian strategy?

Deficit spending for government just means greater future expropriation. It causes social time-preference rates to rise as people anticipate greater future taxes or inflation. Not a good strategy.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Scott Jefferies — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:43:42 GMT

krazy kaju:
So you don't think that the massive deficits we've run up recently will destroy the state, or at least weaken it?

deficit spending in the long run will weaken or destroy the state. but in the short run it allows the state to expand even further. statists like deficits because they want the state to do more than they can squeeze out of its people. as a libertarian i oppose deficits only because they are a temporary vehicle for state expansion. and thats on top of all the inflation youd be allowing. the people will be much worse off, at least until the government collapses. so unless you think the ends justify the means in this instance, you cannot support deficit spending. unless, of course, you force the state into deficits by refusing to pay taxes.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

sicsempertyrannis — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:16:21 GMT

krazy kaju:

People seem to have the wrong idea of what I'm advocating here. I'm not advocating deficits for anything but the destruction of the state.

Scott Jefferies:
i used to believe that you could actually starve the beast. but remember that the beast has a monopoly on currency and can work around pesky deficits. especially as long as people are convinced t-bills are an ethical investment.

So you don't think that the massive deficits we've run up recently will destroy the state, or at least weaken it?

I see what youre advocating, and it is just another variation of the 'worse is best' scienario. Rothbard covered this in one of his articles on the 92 election when some people 'supporting' Clinton as the worst is best candidate and all the while claiming it was a 'Rothbardian' position. Taking the argument to its logical conclusion and the most totalitarian state possible is what libertarians should advocate. Rothbard's example was the 70+ years of misery Russians had to endure under the Soviet Union, was that somehow a plus for liberty? Are Russians now anarcho-capitalists because of the experience? Absolutely not.

More deficits will just lead to more and more misery as the state will simply inflate or steal more from us to cover the losses. In the short run its more misery for US citizens; in the long run, probably more misery.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

krazy kaju — Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:29:49 GMT

People seem to have the wrong idea of what I'm advocating here. I'm not advocating deficits for anything but the destruction of the state.

Scott Jefferies:
i used to believe that you could actually starve the beast. but remember that the beast has a monopoly on currency and can work around pesky deficits. especially as long as people are convinced t-bills are an ethical investment.

So you don't think that the massive deficits we've run up recently will destroy the state, or at least weaken it?

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Eduard - Gabriel Munteanu — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:03:23 GMT

Scott Jefferies:

i used to believe that you could actually starve the beast. but remember that the beast has a monopoly on currency and can work around pesky deficits. especially as long as people are convinced t-bills are an ethical investment.

Not really. As Rothbard points out, after the '29 crisis one or two states began to use gold instead of fiat money. That's why FDR did what he did. But make the mob angry enough and they'll switch sides.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Scott Jefferies — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 05:48:39 GMT

krazy kaju:

Has anyone here ever heard of the "starve the beast" strategy? The general idea is to cut taxes even if you can't tax spending, if only because the increased debt will force the government to cut spending in the future. Is this a good libertarian strategy?

i used to believe that you could actually starve the beast. but remember that the beast has a monopoly on currency and can work around pesky deficits. especially as long as people are convinced t-bills are an ethical investment.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

fezwhatley — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:45:45 GMT

You should refrase the question as "Should libertarians support coercive interventionist government?"

the answer is no

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Stranger — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 02:48:05 GMT

The beast feeds on spending, not taxing. With spending it can command society's resources, decide how they will be consumed, by whom, for what reasons.

The reason the drinking age is 21 in so many U.S. states is because that was tied to funds for highways. No drinking age, no highway money.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

laminustacitus — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:00:40 GMT

There is far too much of a chance for this tactic to backfire to make it an atractive strategy.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Fried Egg — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:18:32 GMT

I don't think it would work because once debts had been paid off, they would just find something else to spend the money on rather than reduce taxes.

Re: Should Libertarians Support Deficit Spending?

Sphairon — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:16:27 GMT

As an alternative, some demagogue could arise, blaming free markets and [random minority group] for the mess to set up his own personal Nazi America. Then, if you thought the War on Drugs was bad, fasten your seat belts for the War on Dissent.

This "Shock Doctrine" bears too many risks for my taste. Plus, what'll happen if Naomi Klein finds out?