Political Theory

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

a_goedker — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:16:42 GMT

The Christians didn't submit to Roman authority. That would be why they were martyred. They are to submit to government as long as it is just, that is why the revolutionary war recieved support from many Christians. If the law stated that a man must sacrifice his firstborn to the president, that would be breaking God's Law, thus it should not be submitted to because the Christian believes that God's Law, since he is the creator, is superior to man's. So a Christian could very well reject paying taxes if the taxes were being used for the purpose of murder (think Iraq) or other crimes against nature and nature's God.

If everyone followed God's Law (which is built into nature) the world would be perfect, and we would not even need govt for the purpose of protection against those who would harm us. I am not a Christian, but the Bible has very good moral (amongst other things) advise, leave it to men in power to pervert a good thing.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

ayrnieu — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:08:59 GMT

Phill O:
Perhaps part of the problem is with the use of the word anarchy without further qualification.

Indeed. If Christianity supports government, it does not follow that it supports the state.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

gerryd429 — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:53:13 GMT

The problem with this is the literal context in which these are usually taken. When using these texts, and the sayings of Christ, one must remember that he spoke with meanings for those "with ears to hear."

The quotation from Matthew 22:15-22 is commonly used to say that Jesus condoned taxes. What he was actually saying is that the person who had earned this coin through the fruits of his labors were his. The image of Caesar (being something without value) was all that was owed.

In the second quotation, many people miss the fact that authorities that God has established were priest kings. We do not live under priest kings.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

pauled — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 02:51:30 GMT

You've got a good point. It is perhaps because of our perverse collective nature that it is the case that we will ask to be subject to a king of some sort. And if it is the case that we get what we truly deserve, and it is God's will that this is so, then perhaps Anarchy is out of the question. I always found this passage to be quite something:

"10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, "This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle ^[b] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day."

"19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. "No!" they said. "We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles."

So, because of man's foolish and self-destructive preferences, and from God's perspective, it may be perfectly justified that we suffer under a state, rather than enjoy life as free people living under a just anarchy. But no man can justify that another man impose such a condition on yet another. This may be all a christian anarchist may be able to argue.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Len Budney — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:21:12 GMT

They would literally ritually slaughter an elder and cannibalistically eat them as a diefication ritual. This is what the communion ritual, as well as the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur, is symbolic of.

I'd be fascinated to see a shred of historical proof of that. Not that I'm holding my breath: the earliest examples of "religious" tradition among genus Homo are funerary rituals, predating Judaism by about 30,000 years. They include no evidence of cannibalism.

But in either case, the actual foundation of the official Christian religion (which the scriptures predate by far) is based in Roman politics...

Christianity and Catholicism are two very different things. They're related historically, but not the same thing. You apear to be conflating the two.

--Len.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Miklos Hollender — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 23:49:33 GMT

I'm not a Christian either, but are you sure Christian views do need to have to be directly based on the Bible? I mean if they call themselves evangelicals or fundies then yes. Otherwise not really.

The way I see religion that it's a sort of an ongoing community project - every generation changes it a bit and after two thousand years, it has more to do with what happened in that two thousand years than what it was originally. I mean, do think about, for example, the Byzantian Empire. It was totally Christian, but totally un-evangelical. Or think about the stiff, industrious and fun-avoiding Scots and Swiss 200 years ago. Also totally Christian, but yet totally different to the Byzantians.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Matthew Graybosch — Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:51:32 GMT

Phill O:
Note, when Jesus said 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's' he did not specify what those things were that were Caesar's.

As far as I'm concerned, Caesar's due is a knife in the back.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Phill O — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 23:51:19 GMT

Perhaps part of the problem is with the use of the word anarchy without further qualification. I am opposed to political government. Certainly any church or other voluntary organization, even a family (which is not completely voluntary) will have a government. The problem is with coericive government.

Of course the statists (that means everyone who believes in any form of coercive government) don't trust the rest of us to do the right things of our own volition.

Note, when Jesus said 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's' he did not specify what those things were that were Caesar's.

Francis Scott Key would roll in his grave

to see what's become of 'the Land of the Brave.'

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Niccolò — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:23:02 GMT

Nathyn:
So were the [insert statement grasping at straws]

No, but they did take the life time of emperors to occur...

Nathyn:
Attempting to combine Christianity and the Greek religion into one pro-government philosophy helped Constantine consolidate his power because it was clear to anyone that knew the man that he wasn't a God and many of the Greeks were surely rational enough to realize this.

Yet not rational enough to question the thought that a lady just jumped out of the brain of Jupiter and called herself Goddess...

You sure you want to declare the Romans and Greeks the most rational people?

Let us not forget Plato's philosopher kings.

Nathyn:

Whereas, under Christianity, he could claim to have divine authority from everyone

And if it were true, then I'd agree with you, but I'm not... so...

Nathyn:
-- and even if his behavior is irrational, he can simply say, "I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner, like all of us. But I'm your king and it's your Christian duty to obey," and encourage a respect for non-violence and the martyrdom of Christ, so that nobody would attempt to overthrow him with violence.

Paul's quote seems to suggest that divine right empowers men to not sin and to carry out the will of God without having to fall back on, "Christ died for my sins too."

Nice try though.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Nathyn — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:40:58 GMT

Niccolò:

Nathyn:
The Greek religion had many gods and if he adhered to it, he couldn't have that much authority.

Wow... You're really bad at history too.

You do realize that Gaius Julius Caesar and Gaius Julius Caesar Octavians were both deified, right?

So were the Phaorahs and the Chinese Emperors, but there were still tons of schisms. Attempting to combine Christianity and the Greek religion into one pro-government philosophy helped Constantine consolidate his power because it was clear to anyone that knew the man that he wasn't a God and many of the Greeks were surely rational enough to realize this. Whereas, under Christianity, he could claim to have divine authority from everyone -- and even if his behavior is irrational, he can simply say, "I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner, like all of us. But I'm your king and it's your Christian duty to obey," and encourage a respect for non-violence and the martyrdom of Christ, so that nobody would attempt to overthrow him with violence.

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Niccolò — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:15:28 GMT

Nathyn:
The Greek religion had many gods and if he adhered to it, he couldn't have that much authority.

Wow... You're really bad at history too.

You do realize that Gaius Julius Caesar and Gaius Julius Caesar Octavians were both deified, right?

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

Nathyn — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:53:10 GMT

pairunoyd:
Nathyn:
pairunoyd:

Nathyn:
I admit I don't think Jesus himself was pro-government -- he said what he did because he was afraid of the Romans.

Jesus was hardly afraid of the Romans. He willingly endured an excruciating death, a death He did NOT have to endure.

They why did he tell his followers to get swords in Luke 22?

Also, please tell me: In Luke 22, Jesus heals a slave's ear right in front of the Jewish High priests. It doesn't make any sense, then, for why they'd arrest him -- see him perform a miracle -- then shortly after that, in court, say, "Give us a sign!" He already allegedly did.

Lastly, I think his blasphemous cries demonstrate it wasn't "voluntary." He had no choice because he was just a man (if he existed), who never conjured up any miracles, and certainly couldn't to save his own life.

It was foretold 1000's of years before His coming that He would die. He told the disciples He was going to die. If He knew a thousand years ago He would be our sacrifice, I think he'd have not only the ability to avoid it but to save Himself in the midst of it.

Messianic Prophecies
This is a chart of the messianic prophecies from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. The promise, prophecy, and fulfillment for each prophecy are shown on this chart.

Isaiah was written 700-750 years prior to the birth of Christ. Psalms was written about 1020 years prior to Jesus' birth. Since Jesus died in A.D. 30 or 33, the prophecies concerning his death were between 800 and 1050 years old when they were fulfilled.

Messianic Prophecies from Isaiah 53

Promise Prophecy Fulfillment

Who has believed our report? Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37-38, Romans 10:16

Despised and rejected Isaiah 53:3 Mark 9:12, Luke 17:25, John 1:10-11, 1 Peter 2:4

He has borne our infirmities Isaiah 53:4 Matthew 8:16-17

Considered smitten by God Isaiah 53:4 Galatians 3:13, Matthew 27:38-44, Luke 23:35

Wounded for our transgressions Isaiah 53:5 Romans 4:25

We are healed by his stripes Isaiah 53:5 1 Peter 2:24

Jesus was flogged Isaiah 53:5 Mark 15:15, Luke 22:63-65, John 19:1

Silent before His accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62-63, 27:12-14, Mark 14:60-61, 15:3-15, John 19:9, Acts 8:32-35

Christ died for our sins Isaiah 53:8 1 Corinthians 15:3

Died with the wicked Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, Luke 23:32-33

Buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60, Mark 15:43-46, Luke 23:50-53, John 19:38-42

Lived a sinless life Isaiah 53:9 1 Peter 2:22

Jesus was an offering for sin Isaiah 53:10 1 Corinthians 15:3, Hebrews 10:12-14

He would justify many Isaiah 53:11 Acts 13:38-39, Romans 5:17-19

He will be great Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 28:18, Luke 24:27

Numbered with transgressors Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, Luke 23:32-33

Made intercession for sinners Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34, 39-43, Romans 8:34

Messianic Prophecies from Psalm 22

Promise Prophecy Fulfillment

The forsaken Christ Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34

Verbally abused by men Psalm 22:6-7 Matthew 26:67-68, 27:27-31

Trust in God ridiculed Psalm 22:8 Matthew 27:39-44, Mark 15:29-32, Luke 23:35, 39

Surrounded by enemies Psalm 22:12 Matthew 27:27-31, Mark 15:16-20

Physically weakened Psalm 22:14-15 Matthew 27:32, Mark 15:21, Luke 23:26

Thirsty Psalm 22:15 John 19:28

Surrounded by enemies Psalm 22:16 Matthew 27:39-44

Hands and feet pierced Psalm 22:16 John 20:20, 25

Bones not broken Psalm 22:17 John 19:31-36

Stared at by the people Psalm 22:17 Matthew 27:55-56, Luke 23:35, 48-49, John 19:20

Lots cast for His clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34, John 19:23-24

God heard His prayers Psalm 22:21, 24 Hebrews 5:7-8

Pairunoyd, nearly all of those aren't Messianic prophecies and weren't regarded that way until Christ came along. Christ had a habit of trying to act in such a way so as to make prophecies fit. One example is his quoting Psalms 22 by saying, "God, why have you forsaken me?!" when Psalms was partially about the Jews' groaning in the Torah and that same pattern of behavior in figures such as King David. And it's regarded as subtle blasphemy since as Psalms says:

Psalms 22:1 (NAS):

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.

How did Christians deal with this problem? By translating the truth out of their Bibles. Most translations inaccurately translate the above passage, to remove the fact that accusing God of forsaking you is blasphemy. Anyone who can either read Hebrew or has at least read literal translations (like YLT) knows that this is a mistranslation, where it's been distorted to be posed as a question rather than a blasphemous accusation against God.

Psalms 22:1 (KJV):

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psalms 22:1 (NLT):

My God, my God! Why have you forsaken me? Why do you remain so distant? Why do you ignore my cries for help?

Psalms 22:1 (NIV):

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

Psalms 22:1 (NRS):

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?

In every case, this is a mistranslation. The word "why" isn't in the original and it isn't posed as a question. You see this in the original American Standard translation:

Psalms 22:1 (ASV):

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [Why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my groaning?

The passages notes that the accusation is blasphemy.

Christians have regularly tried to distort scripture to make the prophecies fit. And Jesus did this himself. The most ridiculous example of this was when he hatched a scheme to convince people he was the Messiah by riding around sideways -- on two donkeys or a horse and a donkey (depending on how you translate it) -- in Matthew 21.

Matthew 21:1-12

When they had approached Jerusalem and had come to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, "Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied there and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me. "If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, `The Lord has need of them,' and immediately he will send them." This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "SAY TO THE DAUGHTER OF ZION, `BEHOLD YOUR KING IS COMING TO YOU, GENTLE, AND MOUNTED ON A DONKEY, EVEN ON A COLT, THE FOAL OF A BEAST OF BURDEN.' " The disciples went and did just as Jesus had instructed them, and brought the donkey and the colt, and laid their coats on them; and He sat on the coats. Most of the crowd spread their coats in the road, and others were cutting branches from the trees and spreading them in the road. The crowds going ahead of Him, and those who followed, were shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David; BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Hosanna in the highest!" When He had entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, "Who is this?" And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."

What blatant fraud!

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

pairunoyd — Thu, 10 Jan 2008 00:03:40 GMT

Nathyn:
pairunoyd:

Nathyn:
I admit I don't think Jesus himself was pro-government -- he said what he did because he was afraid of the Romans.

Jesus was hardly afraid of the Romans. He willingly endured an excruciating death, a death He did NOT have to endure.

They why did he tell his followers to get swords in Luke 22?

Also, please tell me: In Luke 22, Jesus heals a slave's ear right in front of the Jewish High priests. It doesn't make any sense, then, for why they'd arrest him -- see him perform a miracle -- then shortly after that, in court, say, "Give us a sign!" He already allegedly did.

Lastly, I think his blasphemous cries demonstrate it wasn't "voluntary." He had no choice because he was just a man (if he existed), who never conjured up any miracles, and certainly couldn't to save his own life.

It was foretold 1000's of years before His coming that He would die. He told the disciples He was going to die. If He knew a thousand years ago He would be our sacrifice, I think he'd have not only the ability to avoid it but to save Himself in the midst of it.

Messianic Prophecies
This is a chart of the messianic prophecies from Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22. The promise, prophecy, and fulfillment for each prophecy are shown on this chart.

Isaiah was written 700-750 years prior to the birth of Christ. Psalms was written about 1020 years prior to Jesus' birth. Since Jesus died in A.D. 30 or 33, the prophecies concerning his death were between 800 and 1050 years old when they were fulfilled.

Messianic Prophecies from Isaiah 53

Promise	Prophecy	Fulfillment
Who has believed our report?	Isaiah 53:1	John 12:37-38, Romans 10:16
Despised and rejected	Isaiah 53:3	Mark 9:12, Luke 17:25, John 1:10-11, 1 Peter 2:4
He has borne our infirmities	Isaiah 53:4	Matthew 8:16-17
Considered smitten by God	Isaiah 53:4	Galatians 3:13, Matthew 27:38-44, Luke 23:35
Wounded for our transgressions	Isaiah 53:5	Romans 4:25
We are healed by his stripes	Isaiah 53:5	1 Peter 2:24
Jesus was flogged	Isaiah 53:5	Mark 15:15, Luke 22:63-65, John 19:1
Silent before His accusers	Isaiah 53:7	Matthew 26:62-63, 27:12-14, Mark 14:60-61, 15:3-15, John 19:9, Acts 8:32-35
Christ died for our sins	Isaiah 53:8	1 Corinthians 15:3
Died with the wicked	Isaiah 53:9	Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, Luke 23:32-33
Buried with the rich	Isaiah 53:9	Matthew 27:57-60, Mark 15:43-46, Luke 23:50-53, John 19:38-42
Lived a sinless life	Isaiah 53:9	1 Peter 2:22
Jesus was an offering for sin	Isaiah 53:10	1 Corinthians 15:3, Hebrews 10:12-14
He would justify many	Isaiah 53:11	Acts 13:38-39, Romans 5:17-19
He will be great	Isaiah 53:12	Matthew 28:18, Luke 24:27
Numbered with transgressors	Isaiah 53:12	Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28, Luke 23:32-33
Made intercession for sinners	Isaiah 53:12	Luke 23:34, 39-43, Romans 8:34

Messianic Prophecies from Psalm 22

Promise	Prophecy	Fulfillment
The forsaken Christ	Psalm 22:1	Matthew 27:46, Mark 15:34
Verbally abused by men	Psalm 22:6-7	Matthew 26:67-68, 27:27-31
Trust in God ridiculed	Psalm 22:8	Matthew 27:39-44, Mark 15:29-32, Luke 23:35, 39
Surrounded by enemies	Psalm 22:12	Matthew 27:27-31, Mark 15:16-20
Physically weakened	Psalm 22:14-15	Matthew 27:32, Mark 15:21, Luke 23:26
Thirsty	Psalm 22:15	John 19:28
Surrounded by enemies	Psalm 22:16	Matthew 27:39-44
Hands and feet pierced	Psalm 22:16	John 20:20, 25
Bones not broken	Psalm 22:17	John 19:31-36
Stared at by the people	Psalm 22:17	Matthew 27:55-56, Luke 23:35, 48-49, John 19:20
Lots cast for His clothing	Psalm 22:18	Matthew 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34, John 19:23-24
God heard His prayers	Psalm 22:21, 24	Hebrews 5:7-8

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

sam72 — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:54:03 GMT

Niccolò:
Sam, are you a fan of Soren Kierkegaard?

I find his analysis to be specifically interesting and I like his idea of the knight of faith capable of transcending the knight of infinite resignation.

Admittedly, I've only read bits and pieces of his writings. I had meant to get a book or two of his a few months ago, but that didn't happen. I'll look into him more, though.

Niccolò:
P.S. I'm still working on the tax stuff. I have a large paper due today, so I can get back on that with you after it's done.

Sweet! Take your time. And thanks!

Re: The untenability of Christian Anarchism

sam72 — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 23:51:29 GMT

Nathyn:
*slap*

Excuse me if I sound naive, but huh?