Political Theory

Re: God/Christian reasoning for the State

Niccolò — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:03:43 GMT

loweleif:
In another thread right meer...

http://mises.com/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=9436&Quote=False

Attackdonkey:
I acknowledge the fact that in everyway, government, no matter how limited, is still an evil, that it is immoral, and that it is wrong.

But I recognize that government is one of the curses put on us by God, that we must endure for our sins. Men are so wicked that government is a necessity.

Angels would be the only ones on whom a limited Government is unjust. What I mean is we have all violated the higher moral Law that God has revealed to us, and so we are all due to suffer and to fund the government that is established to enforce the basic moral code.

Government is unjust for perfect innocent beings, but none of us are that. therefore we should have government.. limited only to common defense and to the securing of the natural rights given to us by our creator.

First of all, if you acknowledge that the State is evil, immoral, & wrong, then that means that anyone who participates in the State, is sinning.

So who is to rule over the christians? Did god intend for the "followers of Satan" to do so?

How is the state a curse, that god put on us? The state is a human construct, not on of God. In fact, I believe if you read the old testament, the jews did not have a state, and when they in fact created one, they were warned of the evils of the state.

With regards to violating the higher moral law, I thought simply death, pain, hunger, to work etc were our punishments. Perhaps that state's might exist could be a punishment, but that does mean we need to subjicate ourselves willingly to the institutions of the devil.

For the final part, the State is unjust for all human beings. It's flawed reasoning to say that since humans are not a "perfect innocent being" therefore we must have the state. That doesn't make any sense. If humans were perfect there are two perfect alternatives for them to live in. Anarchy, and socialism. If humans were perfect, the state would not need to exist. However, due to human nature, the State should not exist. The reasoning being that since humans are capable of both "good" and "evil", so too are the humans who run the State.

God did give us an instrument to deal with our sins. His name is Christ.

Re: God/Christian reasoning for the State

xahrx — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 04:34:18 GMT

loweleif:
If someone "feels bad" about what they believe, they will either alter its form

Not if they're a masochist. Either way though, debating emotions is like herding cats. The conversation never goes where you want it to, and there's crap all over the place when you're done.

Re: God/Christian reasoning for the State

A.L.Pruitt — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:20:39 GMT

: D.
You never know. If logic cannot pierce indoctrination, one can always turn to debating their emotional side can. (Is this making the argument persona? I'am not sure)l
If someone "feels bad" about what they believe, they will either alter its form (so that the evils are removed e.g Jesus is an anarchist rather than a statist, so now for the christian, it's ok for him to be A-C & Christian), abandon it, or sometimes, simply ignore it. We will see which action he takes. It's at least worth a shot.
All one has to do, is take the basic moral principles of the true believer, and reveal to him the contradictions.

Re: God/Christian reasoning for the State

xahrx — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 03:02:27 GMT

loweleif:
In another thread right meer...

http://mises.com/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=9436&Quote=False

Trying to argue with a true believer in anything is an exercise in futility.

Re: God/Christian reasoning for the State

Juan — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:43:44 GMT

Angels would be the only ones on whom a limited Government is unjust.
There are people who don't want to steal from their neighbours. A lot of people do not commit crimes because they think that crime is wrong. Are they angels ?

God/Christian reasoning for the State

A.L.Pruitt — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 01:25:50 GMT
In another thread right meer...

http://mises.com/forums/AddPost.aspx?ReplyToPostID=9436&Quote=False

Attackdonkey:
I acknowledge the fact that in everyway, government, no matter how limited, is still an evil, that it is immoral, and that it is wrong.

But I recognize that government is one of the curses put on us by God, that we must endure for our sins. Men are so wicked that government is a necessity.

Angels would be the only ones on whom a limited Government is unjust. What I mean is we have all violated the higher moral Law that God has revealed to us, and so we are all due to suffer and to fund the government that is established to enforce the basic moral code.

Government is unjust for perfect innocent beings, but none of us are that. therefore we should have government.. limited only to common defense and to the securing of the natural rights given to us by our creator.

First of all, if you acknowledge that the State is evil, immoral, & wrong, then that means that anyone who participates in the State, is sinning.

So who is to rule over the christians? Did god intend for the "followers of Satan" to do so?

How is the state a curse, that god put on us? The state is a human construct, not on of God. In fact, I believe if you read the old testament, the jews did not have a state, and when they in fact created one, they were warned of the evils of the state.

With regards to violating the higher moral law, I thought simply death, pain, hunger, to work etc were our punishments. Perhaps that state's might exist could be a punishment, but that does mean we need to subjicate ourselves willingly to the institutions of the devil.

For the final part, the State is unjust for all human beings. It's flawed reasoning to say that since humans are not a "perfect innocent being" therefore we must have the state. That doesn't make any sense. If humans were perfect there are two perfect alternatives for them to live in. Anarchy, and socialism. If humans were perfect, the state would not need to exist. However, due to human nature, the State should not exist. The reasoning being that since humans are capable of both "good" and "evil", so too are the humans who run the State.