A historical or current example where democracy successfully, by way of voting, shrunk the size of its government extensively to a more minarchist position.
EinarFridgeirs: Sweden and Iceland... The EU may be on the verge of going federal right now, with all the negative connotations that brings, but IMO the EU process has done more for economic freedom in Europe than any other entity.
Sweden and Iceland... The EU may be on the verge of going federal right now, with all the negative connotations that brings, but IMO the EU process has done more for economic freedom in Europe than any other entity.
This thread was about political parties being voted in to shrink government. Not for the government's own interests to shrink to be included in a MUCH larger government. That's not a shrink. That's a get the secret password to enter into the even bigger government than ever before.
Define liberty.
Define free market.
nirgrahamUK: I'm a little hazy and maybe there's nothing in it, but perhaps check out Estonia?
I'm a little hazy and maybe there's nothing in it, but perhaps check out Estonia?
Aaahhh no!!
We have the left wing parties who raise taxes, and the right wing parties who raise taxes and support war. Right wing guys lowered income tax a bit during boom but now after bust the total taxation level is at its highest ever, with the right-wing government slapping on new taxes day and night.
The Late Andrew Ryan:Around 1830 where Englabd repealed the corn laws and became a nearly free market. The entire classical liberal movment
The fundamental question to me is were such measures passed because the right people were voted in. Or were they passed to appease the grumbling populace and would have therefore been introduced regardless of who actually held power.I`ll remind you that Bismarck created the German welfare state and it was not because he was a social democrat.
filc: Libertarian_for_Life:I can get plenty of examples where people actually believed that voting gave them control over limiting their government. Well i want to use this as a challenge to mincharists. Beleiving they shrunk the government does not mean they did. I want want some type of impirical evidence which proves the government's size actually decreased. This should be a fairly easy thing to measure with the common economic tools we presently have. Are you all sure there is no example, not even a freakish one where by accident a government shrunk in size due to voting? I'm talking in aggregate of coarse, not in small isolated examples.
Libertarian_for_Life:I can get plenty of examples where people actually believed that voting gave them control over limiting their government.
Well i want to use this as a challenge to mincharists. Beleiving they shrunk the government does not mean they did. I want want some type of impirical evidence which proves the government's size actually decreased. This should be a fairly easy thing to measure with the common economic tools we presently have.
Are you all sure there is no example, not even a freakish one where by accident a government shrunk in size due to voting? I'm talking in aggregate of coarse, not in small isolated examples.
Is this a challenge to those who believe in minarchy or those who believe in democracy? In the past, I think those who believed in government as a neccessary evil did not delude themselves in thinking that voting and democracy would stop the growth or shrink government. It seems many believed that armed conflict was neccessary from time to time to keep 'em honest. I believe that, in fact, those minarchists feared democracy and attempted to create a government where popular vote was counter balanced by other mechanisms. The weakest position that a minarchist who believes in democracy has taken may not be minarchy. It might be his faith in mob rule.
Southern: The weakest position that a minarchist who believes in democracy has taken may not be minarchy. It might be his faith in mob rule.
The weakest position that a minarchist who believes in democracy has taken may not be minarchy. It might be his faith in mob rule.
Oh how I wish democracy as we know it were mob rule. I`m afraid it`s far worse.
Marko: Southern: The weakest position that a minarchist who believes in democracy has taken may not be minarchy. It might be his faith in mob rule. Oh how I wish democracy as we know it were mob rule. I`m afraid it`s far worse.
Very true.
Southern:Is this a challenge to those who believe in minarchy or those who believe in democracy?
Perhaps both, sorry to be vague. I really think this could end up being a very good argument to both minarchists and democratic worshipers alike. One thing though is I don't want to be called a hipocrit from a classic argument I use to statists, arguing from ignorance. They may argue back that just because it's never transpired doesn't mean it's not possible. I use this argument as well as an a defense for anarchy. Many people argue that the state has just always been, and therefore it's enough proof to believe that the state always must be.
Still I think historically speaking minarchists have had FAR more chances for their system to shrink government over our method of individual secession. As it stands we are not freely allowed to individiualy secede. Every single election which increases the size of government is further evidence that democracy is incapable of shrinking the size of government. It may be technically possible but it seems to be highly unlikely.
I want to explore the topics on this thread as I think it could be a very serious thorn for both minarchists and democracy worshipers alike.
Ivan Ivanov:By the way it's sort of funny how this whole episode is handled in the Polish texbooks. School children are hammered every day with how bad this aristocratic democarcy was, because all the nobled voted for all sorts of priviledges for themselves, yet no one EVER makes the connection to the current democracy, and how unions, corporations and other interest groups push for priviledges for themselves.
That is a humorous observation.
Well from now on any minarchist who asks me to cite an example of a market anarchy beyond the one we already have I'll ask them to cite me an example of a large democracy voting in minarchy.
Cabal:I'm not sure if this is precisely what you're looking for, but it may be relevant? It seems to suggest 'gross' decline in post-war government size, though at the same time it seems to concede that pre to post-war, the 'net' size of government did indeed increase. Anyway, a fairly interesting read. The 1946 Voter Revolt Against Government Regulation
The 1946 Voter Revolt Against Government Regulation
It looks like this is the closest thing to an answer. A little sad.
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filc: Well from now on any minarchist who asks me to cite an example of a market anarchy beyond the one we already have I'll ask them to cite me an example of a large democracy voting in minarchy.
To which I reply I am not a democrat.