laminustacitus:America's army =/= Modern Warfare 2. Your point is absolutely pathetic. In order to prove me wrong, you have to prove that the United States military is a driving force behind most of the games like Counterstrike, Halo, Call of Duty, etc., one little-known game (I've never once heard of America's Army before even though I am pretty well-versed in the contemporary first-person shooters) will not.
Strawman, it has never been my stance nor have I stated that the military was a driving force behind all FPS. Nor have I stated that there would not be such a market in the absence of military involvement.
Reading comprehension ftw.
I have nothing to prove you wrong on, calm down.
filc: http://www.fastcompany.com/articles/2005/01/top-jobs-wardynski.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army Woops!
Yup, that's it. I bet if someone did some searching,they could find out about DoD grants and funding of the other major titles as well.
liberty student: filc: http://www.fastcompany.com/articles/2005/01/top-jobs-wardynski.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army Woops! Yup, that's it. I bet if someone did some searching,they could find out about DoD grants and funding of the other major titles as well.
Ya, did you see how much taxpayer money was spent into this? I'd be interested to know how much it's costs of production was in comparisson to something like HL2 with the source engine.
filc: laminustacitus:America's army =/= Modern Warfare 2. Your point is absolutely pathetic. In order to prove me wrong, you have to prove that the United States military is a driving force behind most of the games like Counterstrike, Halo, Call of Duty, etc., one little-known game (I've never once heard of America's Army before even though I am pretty well-versed in the contemporary first-person shooters) will not. Strawman, it has never been my stance nor have I stated that the military was a driving force behind all FPS. Nor have I stated that there would not be such a market in the absence of military involvement. Reading comprehension ftw. I have nothing to prove you wrong on, calm down.
Go on and ignore my point then, pretend that it doesn't destroy your comment while acting cocky about it.
It is no strawman, America's Army is not a successful video game, if you want to prove these comments:
Bloomj31:Does marketing play a huge role in the market? I think so. But I fail to see how or where the military is doing its advertising for these games. The games are advertised as fun diversions and distractions. Not as some way of exercising patriotism and/or nationalism.
laminustacitus:Seconded.
wrong then you need to show how a video game like Halo, or CoD has military backing. This:
filc: Bloomj31:Does marketing play a huge role in the market? I think so. But I fail to see how or where the military is doing its advertising for these games. The games are advertised as fun diversions and distractions. Not as some way of exercising patriotism and/or nationalism. laminustacitus:Seconded. Snowflake: Laughing Man:Edit: The game is called "America's Army" It already came out. It was basically like counterstrike except instead of CT vs T both teams see the other as terrorists. http://www.fastcompany.com/articles/2005/01/top-jobs-wardynski.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Army Woops!
Snowflake: Laughing Man:Edit: The game is called "America's Army" It already came out. It was basically like counterstrike except instead of CT vs T both teams see the other as terrorists.
Laughing Man:Edit: The game is called "America's Army"
Does not. That comment of yours is debunked by what you called a "strawman".
Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.
- Edmund Burke
liberty student:I bet if someone did some searching,they could find out about DoD grants and funding of the other major titles as well.
Put your time and effort where your mouth is.
LS and FIl, I challenge you both to go out and buy MW2 and just play for a couple of weeks. As abhorrent as violence is to you both, I can almost guarantee you will have fun. It's a great game and it's just great fun. I think in your two weeks of playtime, you'll find out why there's a market for violent games and that it's got nothing to do with the military brainwashing people.
laminustacitus:America's Army is not a successful video game
It is as successful as any government program.
laminustacitus:Go on and ignore my point then,
Ok lets look at your points.
laminustacitus:America's Army is not a successful video game,
Oh? I guess that means taxpayers shouldn't be paying for unproductive business then.
Bloom made a challenge that the military was NOT involved in the development of any of these games. I provided a link that said otherwise. The point had nothing to do with the military being involved with the production of ALL games. Sorry if it was confusing.
laminustacitus:Does not. That comment of yours is debunked by what you called a "strawman".
I don't even know what this means as I have no idea what your getting at! The military has been involved in making PC games. And your post was a strawman, as you attempted to state my argument for me, without even knowing what my argument was. I never implied that the military was the driving force behind all FPS games. I have already clarified my position once. I'll re-quote myself for you since you can't be bothered to read all my comments apparently.
filc: it has never been my stance nor have I stated that the military was a driving force behind all FPS.
filc:Nor have I stated that there would not be such a market in the absence of military involvement.
Yea because medieval soldiers running into battles who relentlessly raped and pillaged certainly didn't dehumanize at all. If anything I think they help because they show exactly how dangerous we can really be in a simulated arena.
bloomj31: LS and FIl, I challenge you both to go out and buy MW2 and just play for a couple of weeks. As abhorrent a violence is to you both, I can almost guarantee you will have fun.
LS and FIl, I challenge you both to go out and buy MW2 and just play for a couple of weeks. As abhorrent a violence is to you both, I can almost guarantee you will have fun.
FPS games generally bore me. I've seen them, they look boring to me. The only FPS games I've been able to tolerate in the past is CS Source, HL2, and Farcry. They are definitely violent. I prefer games like Eve, or EQ though.
bloomj31: I think in your two weeks of playtime, you'll find out why there's a market for violent games
Bloom if you bothered to read anythign I said you will see that I never disagreed with that. Both you and Lam would do yourselves a favor by reading what people actually post.
filc: bloomj31: LS and FIl, I challenge you both to go out and buy MW2 and just play for a couple of weeks. As abhorrent a violence is to you both, I can almost guarantee you will have fun. FPS games generally bore me. I've seen them, they look boring to me. The only FPS games I've been able to tolerate in the past is CS Source, HL2, and Farcry. They are definitely violent. I prefer games like Eve, or EQ though. bloomj31: I think in your two weeks of playtime, you'll find out why there's a market for violent games Bloom if you bothered to read anythign I said you will see that I never disagreed with that. Both you and Lam would do yourselves a favor by reading what people actually post.
Alright, Fil, I'm sorry for misconstruing your position. Did you play Farcry 2, btw?
I think without a doubt the campaign of MW2 is pure war propaganda and a neoconservative's wet dream. It involves a modern day presentation of the movie Red Dawn in which the Russians invade the United States and a nuclear weapon needs to be detonated over on the East Coast of the United States in order to stop the Russians. You are left overlooking the ruins of Washington DC, ready to 'bring the fight to the enemy.' Thankfully the game is really based on multi player. You can rip through solo campaign in 7 hours.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
bloomj31:LS and FIl, I challenge you both to go out and buy MW2 and just play for a couple of weeks.
I don't even own a TV. Why would I buy a video game and waste precious time that could be spent on thousands of other things besides simulating violence?
bloomj31:As abhorrent as violence is to you both, I can almost guarantee you will have fun. It's a great game and it's just great fun. I think in your two weeks of playtime, you'll find out why there's a market for violent games and that it's got nothing to do with the military brainwashing people.
I know there is a market for violent video games. There is also a market for snuff movies and kiddie porn. I don't need to check them out to see how much fun they are.
bloomj31:Alright, Fil, I'm sorry for misconstruing your position. Did you play Farcry 2, btw?
I haven't. I also played Crysis, now that I remember, and that also was a fun innovative FPS. If you say farcry matches it I may try it. I have an ati 5850 with a 24" HD LCD monitor. I'm sure the game would look great.
liberty student: I don't even own a TV. Why would I buy a video game and waste precious time that could be spent on thousands of other things besides simulating violence?
Because then you could find out whether they're really as horrible as you think they are. I mean I'm reading Machinery of Freedom.
liberty student: I know there is a market for violent video games. There is also a market for snuff movies and kiddie porn. I don't need to check them out to see how much fun they are.
Do you really see violent video games as being similar in terms of immorality to snuff films and/or kiddie porn?
filc:I haven't. I also played Crysis, now that I remember, and that also was a fun innovative FPS. If you say farcry matches it I may try it. I have an ati 5850 with a 24" HD LCD monitor. I'm sure the game would look great.
Crysis is a good game.
Farcry 2...not so much.
filc: bloomj31:Alright, Fil, I'm sorry for misconstruing your position. Did you play Farcry 2, btw? I haven't. I also played Crysis, now that I remember, and that also was a fun innovative FPS. If you say farcry matches it I may try it. I have an ati 5850 with a 24" HD LCD monitor. I'm sure the game would look great.
I never played Crysis because I suck at PC games and they never ported it over to Xbox, which was lame. From what I read about Crysis, there's no way Farcry 2 is going to be as good in terms of overall quality, but it is still a hell of a lot of fun.
Right now, I think the best FPS game is MW2. It's just so polished and fluid. Halo ODST was also a lot of fun. Are you a pure PC gamer?
Laughing Man: Crysis is a good game. Farcry 2...not so much.
I thought Farcry 2 had so much potential. But it really wasn't a farcry game. Where were the feral powers??
bloomj31:Do you really see violent video games as being similar in terms of immorality to snuff films and/or kiddie porn?
I don't. If there were fake kiddie porn or snuff films, on the other hand, then the violent video game would be similar in terms of immorality to those, perhaps worse - the others do not require participation. Would we consider someone watching a fake snuff film or looking at fake kiddie porn to be doing something less than virtuous? I think so. Why would it be any different for the person who pretends to kill people?
I used to teach at a boarding school. Lots of kids there loved video games. It is disturbing to see young children, dressed in ties and jackets, sitting at dinner and discussing how many kills they had that day, even if you know it isn't real. It is disturbing to walk into the rec hall and watch the delight on their faces as they press buttons, causing gore to be spilled. It is hard to think that this is not desensitizing them to suffering. It is disturbing to talk to them about the games and have them explain that the reason the characters in the game may be killed at will is that they are "the bad guys" or "the enemy" or "aliens."
bloomj31:I thought Farcry 2 had so much potential. But it really wasn't a farcry game. Where were the feral powers??
It is basically the 'Quantum of Solace' of the Far Cry series. A ridiculous plot line about warring Africa that completely diverted the direction of that which came before. You go from being Jack Carver trying to stop a mutagen that changes people into horror monsters to being some guy in a buggy driving around Africa picking up diamonds and trying to hunt down a single guy. It's like going from ballroom dancing to polka. Don't get me wrong, good graphics but you don't buy games because they are pretty.
bloomj31: Does marketing play a huge role in the market? I think so. But I fail to see how or where the military is doing its advertising for these games. The games are advertised as fun diversions and distractions. Not as some way of exercising patriotism and/or nationalism. Now, if you're going to tell me that the military is brainwashing people into playing violent games and that the market's preferences for said games is not authentic, why do you assume that any market preferences are authentic and not just a manifestation of brainwashing in some other way? In other words, why do you always give the market credit except when it comes to selecting violent games?
Does marketing play a huge role in the market? I think so. But I fail to see how or where the military is doing its advertising for these games. The games are advertised as fun diversions and distractions. Not as some way of exercising patriotism and/or nationalism.
Now, if you're going to tell me that the military is brainwashing people into playing violent games and that the market's preferences for said games is not authentic, why do you assume that any market preferences are authentic and not just a manifestation of brainwashing in some other way?
In other words, why do you always give the market credit except when it comes to selecting violent games?
It is a symbiotic relationship. State propaganda makes more people into pro-military, nationalist/patriot zombies than would otherwise be the case. Pro-military, nationalist/patriot zombies go out and tend to consume more pro-military, nationalist/patriot products. Therefore benefiting the likes of Tom Clancy and the game designers of the many games made after his novels, who now sell more products than they otherwise would.
You do have to admit Tom Clancy is a pro-military, nationalist/patriot author and that his popularity benefits the military and the foreign policy establishment. As do games like Ghost Recon 1.
Marko:You do have to admit Tom Clancy is a pro-military, nationalist/patriot author and that his popularity benefits the military and the foreign policy establishment. As do games like Ghost Recon 1.
And Splinter Cell. Though I am hesitant to agree with you on 'state propaganda makes more people more military.' I think you are to a degree correct but some people are just naturally militaristic.
Marko: It is a symbiotic relationship. State propaganda makes more people into pro-military, nationalist/patriot zombies than would otherwise be the case. Pro-military, nationalist/patriot zombies go out and tend to consume more pro-military, nationalist/patriot products. Therefore benefiting the likes of Tom Clancy and the game designers of the many games made after his novels, who now sell more products than they otherwise would. You do have to admit Tom Clancy is a pro-military, nationalist/patriot author and that his popularity benefits the military and the foreign policy establishment. As do games like Ghost Recon 1.
I've honestly never read Tom Clancy nor have I played Ghost Recon. So you might be right, I don't really know.
The way I got to be really pro-military was by training Jiu Jitsu and meeting Swat guys and Marines and Navy seals and just really enjoying them as people because they were so damn disciplined.
Laughing Man: bloomj31:I thought Farcry 2 had so much potential. But it really wasn't a farcry game. Where were the feral powers?? It is basically the 'Quantum of Solace' of the Far Cry series. A ridiculous plot line about warring Africa that completely diverted the direction of that which came before. You go from being Jack Carver trying to stop a mutagen that changes people into horror monsters to being some guy in a buggy driving around Africa picking up diamonds and trying to hunt down a single guy. It's like going from ballroom dancing to polka. Don't get me wrong, good graphics but you don't buy games because they are pretty.
I like pretty games but I just thought, as you pointed out, it was a huge departure from the first game and the story was retarded. However, I did enjoy driving around and shooting people. I also liked the fire effects.
bloomj31:The way I got to be really pro-military was by training Jiu Jitsu and meeting Swat guys and Marines and Navy seals and just really enjoying them as people because they were so damn disciplined.
Well what is desirable about discipline?
Laughing Man: Well what is desirable about discipline?
It's just a form of self control, in my mind. I really enjoyed learning about stoicism in high school and I think I found it in highly disciplined people. I try to be like them but it's hard.
bloomj31:I like pretty games but I just thought, as you pointed out, it was a huge departure from the first game and the story was retarded. However, I did enjoy driving around and shooting people. I also liked the fire effects
Well it seems like you have different preferences in your gaming likes. Myself, I like solid plot lines that involve developing a character. The ability of choice and ethical conundrums behind the game itself. That is why I'm so psyched about Mass Effect 2 and why I consider Deus Ex probably one of the best games ever made.
bloomj31:It's just a form of self control, in my mind. I really enjoyed learning about stoicism in high school and I think I found it in highly disciplined people. I try to be like them but it's hard.
There is a beauty in emotion. I think rational and logic is a highly desirable state but emotions are an important part also. I mean, how does a human being flourish if happiness cannot be felt?
Laughing Man: And Splinter Cell. Though I am hesitant to agree with you on 'state propaganda makes more people more military.' I think you are to a degree correct but some people are just naturally militaristic.
Yes indeed. That is why I wrote it makes more people into zombies. More than would otherwise be the case.
But there are such people everyhwere. Even in tiny European states that never had anyone like Tom Clancy or Fox News and where nobody drives around with a "Support the troops" bumper sticker.
Laughing Man: Well it seems like you have different preferences in your gaming likes. Myself, I like solid plot lines that involve developing a character. The ability of choice and ethical conundrums behind the game itself. That is why I'm so psyched about Mass Effect 2 and why I consider Deus Ex probably one of the best games ever made.
Dude, I'm with you on Mass Effect 2, I think I'm gonna go pre-order it tomorrow. That game looks so so good. Did you play Dragon Age?
Deus Ex was...like an epoch in gaming. I remember playing that game and just thinking "wow, I actually have an effect on this world."
Have you played Fallout 3? It's a lot like that. Very open, choices have consequences, this kinda thing.
Marko:Yes indeed. That is why I wrote it makes more people into zombies. More than would otherwise be the case.
Ah ok. Now I see what you are getting at.
Marko:But there are such people everyhwere. Even in tiny European states that never had anyone like Tom Clancy or Fox News and where nobody drives around with a "Support the troops" bumper sticker.
Well I think there is a possibility that someone people support the troops in terms of hoping they aren't hurt and wish they would come home. This is probably a minority view though but still a view none the less.
Laughing Man: There is a beauty in emotion. I think rational and logic is a highly desirable state but emotions are an important part also. I mean, how does a human being flourish if happiness cannot be felt?
This is the thing. It's not that I was trained to not feel emotions. I was trained to not get too happy or too sad or too angry or really too emotional about anything. So when I'm driving in traffic and someone cuts me off, I don't usually get irate. Because it's a waste of energy.
In the same way, if I get in a fight, I try not to get so angry that I stop thinking. That's the kind of emotion control that I learned from those guys and I just admired them for it. They get shot at and don't flip out. That takes mental discipline.
They trained me to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. So now, when things go my way, I feel good, but when things don't go my way, I'm not totally surprised.
I also want to say this as sort of an aside:
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I've watched snuff films and they're pretty intense. I've been playing violent video games for years, I trained Jiu Jitsu for years, I listen to violent music and watch violent movies and I still understood immediately that there was a difference between reality and simulation. Although I think most snuff films are fake and it's hard to tell whether it's fake or not (many of the ones I've seen are quite convincing) there's just immediately a difference to me.
Now I really was trained to kill (if necessary) without remorse or hesitation by my instructors. I never even went into the military, most self defense programs train people to be willing to do what they need to do if it's for the purposes of self defense and I still really didn't find any enjoyment in watching a woman be raped and killed on camera.
bloomj31:Dude, I'm with you on Mass Effect 2, I think I'm gonna go pre-order it tomorrow. That game looks so so good. Did you play Dragon Age?
Played Dragon Age. The problem with that game is that there really is only a side A and a side B, you know? Like after developing two characters, one good, one evil then you pretty much solve the game. I don't see that as the case with Mass Effect though because you can be an adept, engineer, soldier, etc etc. and each one could be good or evil. I didn't like that there were only 3 classes with it either. Plus there was definitely a class power difference. You can wipe a whole room with a mage but as a rogue you can barely handle 2 guys and you're screwed if you go against an elite character.
bloomj31:Deus Ex was...like an epoch in gaming. I remember playing that game and just thinking "wow, I actually have an effect on this world."
Yea I said in some other topic that I played through that entire game probably about 10 times, reinstalled it 2 years later and was still finding new stuff.
bloomj31:Have you played Fallout 3? It's a lot like that. Very open, choices have consequences, this kinda thing.
Very good game though too short. It was only like 10 missions or something. I know there was side stuff but it really didn't develop the story. I liked the radio stations, very cool idea.
JAlanKatz: If there were fake kiddie porn or snuff films, on the other hand, then the violent video game would be similar in terms of immorality to those, perhaps worse - the others do not require participation. Would we consider someone watching a fake snuff film or looking at fake kiddie porn to be doing something less than virtuous? I think so. Why would it be any different for the person who pretends to kill people?
I notice people just blew by this. I suppose if libertarians think simulated violence is ok, then they would probably be ok with simulated kiddie porn.
JAlanKatz:I used to teach at a boarding school. Lots of kids there loved video games. It is disturbing to see young children, dressed in ties and jackets, sitting at dinner and discussing how many kills they had that day, even if you know it isn't real. It is disturbing to walk into the rec hall and watch the delight on their faces as they press buttons, causing gore to be spilled. It is hard to think that this is not desensitizing them to suffering. It is disturbing to talk to them about the games and have them explain that the reason the characters in the game may be killed at will is that they are "the bad guys" or "the enemy" or "aliens."
After I got into John Taylor Gatto and learned about the Prussian system, I never saw education in the same way.
bloomj31:This is the thing. It's not that I was trained to not feel emotions. I was trained to not get too happy or too sad or too angry or really too emotional about anything. So when I'm driving in traffic and someone cuts me off, I don't usually get irate. Because it's a waste of energy.
Yea the whole martial arts balance motif. I went through that too. If you are never too happy or never too sad then you are just the medium of everything.
bloomj31:In the same way, if I get in a fight, I try not to get so angry that I stop thinking. That's the kind of emotion control that I learned from those guys and I just admired them for it. They get shot at and don't flip out. That takes mental discipline
Well a lot of that is just experience to the point of tolerance. That's why you run obstacle courses with gun firing going off. You just get use to it.
liberty student:I notice people just blew by this. I suppose if libertarians think simulated violence is ok, then they would probably be ok with simulated kiddie porn.
Well just so you know liberty. I'm always the good guy in the game and I'm always nice to all my npc's. I only shoot at those who shoot at me first thus the NAP is honored
liberty student:I notice people just blew by this. I suppose if libertarians think simulated violence is ok, then they would probably be ok with simulated kiddie porn
That's a very big assumption to make, in my opinion.
"I suppose if libertarians (or people in general. The group doesn't matter) think smoking pot is ok, then they would probably be ok with shooting up heroin." See what I mean by big assumptions?
I've been playing "violent" video games since I was 7 or 8 and I have never had violent tendencies. I also don't glorify them, but talking about how many kills one gets on Call of Duty is akin to talking about how many touchdowns one gets in Madden. Of course, it's very different in the real world but with video games its all for fun and competition.
Because killing depending on the circumstances does not have to constitute aggression.
Does anyone watch that show 'White Collar' on USA? All about a slick con artist/forger/art thief who is helping the FBI's white collar division. Exciting show but it doesn't make me want to become an art thief or a con artist or work for the FBI for that matter. It does make me wonder who his tailor is though because he is tres chic. I really think that is what entertainment is. Doing/Seeing that which we know we cannot do in real life. That is why it is entertaining...because it is not run of the mill. It is not common.