No, but I've only been around for Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm only 23. I guess I was around for the Gulf War but I was a little kid.
I'm sure there were wars between the Gulf War and Invasion of Afghanistan. Clinton killed people in 6 different countries.
Besides you can answer in retrospect. Would you have supported the Gulf War, etc had you been around?
jmorris84: "Really? In what way?"
40 years ago in Northeast China, children would arrive at school crying almost every day, because despite the -20 degree conditions, they didn't have the luxury of shoes and were forced to bind their feet with any spare cloth they could find.
Today, the biggest worry of many Chinese children is upgrading their cellphone.
Seph: Mind showing me or explaining to me where you have gotten that outlook on the daily life of your average Chinese person?
bloomj31:I have a great deal of interest in Israel and I'm glad that the US is trying to do something to prevent a Nuclear Iran from happening.
Yes, it's a good deal. You get to have something you like, and all it costs is my money and Iranian lives. What do you say to Americans with an interest in Japan? The largest nuclear threat in the world is obviously the country crazy enough to have used them, twice.
JAlanKatz: Yes, it's a good deal. You get to have something you like, and all it costs is my money and Iranian lives. What do you say to Americans with an interest in Japan? The largest nuclear threat in the world is obviously the country crazy enough to have used them, twice.
I'm sorry you don't like the way the game works.
We'll talk when you realize murder is not a game.
But don't you know that sanctions have worked so effectively to rid of Cuba and North Korea of communism?
Yeah. Leninists care far too much about the proverbial people to allow a fall in living standards.
@Katz, I sense moral condescension. But as you must realize, this is a game. Some people win and some people lose and it's all totally disgusting but if it's not them it's us. Iran is likely to be building nuclear weapons, if they actually do make them, they'll probably try to use them on Israel or maybe even hand them off to some terrorist group that would be perfectly happy to use them here. Innocent people will be hurt by these sanctions, it's true, but if it saves American or Israeli lives, it will be worth it to me. There are innocent people everywhere, it sucks to talk about ranking lives, but that's what we have to do. We nuked Japan so they'd stop fighting. And it worked. That act, though devastating to Japan, probably saved lots of American lives. This action against Iran may save American and Israeli lives, so I support it. I'm sure you won't condescend to come down off your high horse but if you do, you will see that this is how the game works. Your sort of moralizing is exactly why I could never vote for RP, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who can make tough decisions. Make no mistake, this is a tough decision and, although I might come off as flippant, I fully realize what is at stake here. Even still, I fully support Obama and the Congress in this action and I hope it gets Iran to second guess their nuclear ambitions. If not, you can bet there will be more stringent actions taken. And libertarians will like those even less than they like these. So you should hope this works so that the game doesn't get even dirtier.
We nuked Japan so they'd stop fighting.
Japan offered to surrender before that. But keep going, you are on a roll with the whole jew-centric racism.
That's really all I have to say.
But keep going, you are on a roll with the whole jew-centric racism.
Of course you realize the stakes and still pursue your desired course - you consider American and Israeli lives more valuable than Iranian lives. That is the moral calculus you have chosen, and you presume to lecture me on moral rigidity. See, you can talk about making tough decisions, but the fact is, I've made one too. I've chosen, in the face of the dangers you list, to value not murdering people more highly.
Now, if it was acceptable to use the nuclear bomb to make the Japanese "stop fighting" - when they had already offered to surrender - why not say it's just as well to use it to make the US stop fighting, or Israel? After all, Israel is a nation formed by blowing up a hotel and then forcing people out of their homes at gunpoint - because an evil German killed Jews, therefore the Arabs had to lose their homes. Now they resist forcefully any attempt at justice. Why not make them stop fighting? Or the US, which has invaded many, many countries without provocation? If ever there were a case for the use of weapons of mass destruction to make someone stop fighting (for clarity, I say there isn't, but you maintain that it is acceptable to murder large numbers of civilians because of crimes of their governments) certainly it would be against a nation as aggressive as the US.
In other words, if it is acceptable to aggress against Iranians because you fear what their government might do, it is equally acceptable for Iran to aggress against Americans because of what our government directly declares it plans to do.
Unless, of course, you operate on a moral calculus that weighs a life more highly because a person had the skill to be born in America, or to believe in a book in which Abraham put Isaac on the altar and sent Ishmael to die in the desert, rather than a book in which Abraham did the opposite. If someone dares believe that Ishmael was on the altar, that person's life is without value, at least compared to the life of someone who believes that Isaac was on the altar. Of course, you might choose to have such a calculus, but don't be surprised when others don't play along with your delusions. (By the way, both religions seem to agree that it is good to descend from the son Abraham was willing to kill with a sword and only evil can descend from the son Abraham sent to die in the desert. I see no reason either claim makes sense.)
It is perfectly acceptable for them to try and kill us. And they will try to kill us. Perhaps they're morally justified in doing so, I don't know. Only God can make that call. All I can do, as an American Jew, is give my support to stand up for my people. If that means we have to do something that God frowns upon so be it. He will judge us all in the end.
If I had to choose between them and us, I choose us. I take no pleasure in any of it, despite what you may think.
If I had to choose between them and us, I choose us.
Yet, what you support is aggression towards Iran while they are not aggressing towards us.
Bert: Yet, what you support is aggression towards Iran while they are not aggressing towards us.
Correct, I say nip it in the bud now. Get them before they can get the chance to get us. It violates the NAP, but I am not bound by any principle or rule except the rule of Law and the law of God and neither are they.
Sorry but the quote option isnt workin for me so...
Quote by Bloomj31:"It is perfectly acceptable for them to try and kill us. And they will try to kill us. Perhaps they're morally justified in doing so, I don't know. Only God can make that call. All I can do, as an American Jew, is give my support to stand up for my people. If that means we have to do something that God frowns upon so be it. He will judge us all in the end.
If I had to choose between them and us, I choose us. I take no pleasure in any of it, despite what you may think"
Why is killing Iranians a means of support to stand up for your people? Wouldn't this action only create MORE enmity between Israel and Iranians(seeing as all US actions against Iran are seen as done for Israel) and put more Jews in harms way? This isn't a choice between "them and us"- its not even a choice between anything.
The situation is: Make Iranians suffer for a fear you have of Iran possibly nuking Israel. Which is never going to happen- there's nothing to gain from nuking Israel, and Iran would earn the hate of all Muslims and Muslim nations if they were to cause such destructive damage to a place that is respected by Muslims. When Ahmadenijad made that statement that everyone refers to and that they fear means Iran is going to Nuke israel- we all know what he was saying was that the Israeli State would vanish akin to the Soviet Union, not that all jews would perish by his hand. I'm always wary of so called "muslim governments" because they are the most hypocritical when it comes to Islam. But nuking Israel would cause all the damage in the world- damage to palestinians, damage to Islam, and further damage to humanity. Iran knows that it would itself get pulverized if it took any such action so why do something that mad? Not even the Soviet Union with the amount of insanity in that government had taken an action to nuke the US.
Israel is more likely to destroy Iran- and more than likely very close to doing so. The Israeli-state has no problems killing as many people as they want to if they feel its necessary. They always kill more people than the other way around- thats how its been since the state's inception. And as they continue to do so they only put more innocent lives at risk- not just others but their own people.
I can understand wanting nothing but safety for your people- but I really cannot conceive of how this action accomplishes it. The fuel of human blood just enrages the fire further. I dont want to waste time like others and call you crazy or whatever cuz I know you've heard that before in your other posts on this forum- but you're a smart guy man, you don't see how this does nothing for ANYONE's safety?
And they will try to kill us.
Nip what in the bud? You are the one who seems to be aggressive, not Iran. I don't think Iran is out to get anyone. You seem to be falling for whatever propaganda there is to go to war. I don't see how aggressive action is going to solve anything. The policies you support give them reason not to like us. I'm not sure if that's what you want (out of it), but that's what you'll get.
Besides your nationalist leanings in defending Israel for the sake of being Jewish, you have not provided a legitmate reason to be aggressive towards Iran except for your pro-war hysteria.
I'll think about what you guys have said, but let's say we leave Iran alone and it turns out you're wrong and Israel (or America) gets nuked. Then what?
Are you creating a hypothetical strawman?
Iran won't nuke anyone. Nothing will happen. If they did attack Israel on that scale, I'm sure more than the United States would take action towards them.
Let's hope you're right. But the sanctions are going to happen whether I want them to or not. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't stop them. That being said, I don't think I would stop them if I could.
Anyways, I'm going to take a break, this has made me angry and I don't like to post when I'm angry. I'll be back later.
Bloomj31:I'll think about what you guys have said, but let's say you're wrong and Israel (or America) gets nuked. Then what?
Not to be condescending(although I guess it is condescending), but from your previous example, it would be just like when japan got nuked right? Peace and harmony?
Who knows? I would think that Iran would definitely be nuked right back if that were to happen- and if nukes are flying left and right, no one is safe. But lets say Iran gets nuked. Then what? None of us can predict the future- I just know that violence NOW is wrong. Trying to think in terms of "We're doing this to ensure the safety of the future" is a GUARANTEE for more violence in the future, not any sort of peace for anyone. The violent enforcement of communism for the "greater good" was something very terrible- this is a definite path for humanity's self-annihilation.
In short, a nuclear Iran is a security risk.
Assuming what is reported is true about Iran, I don't think there is a way you can take that form of logic and not apply it to a bankrupting number of scenarios within the past 60 years.
I have a great deal of interest in Israel
I see no reason why anyone should give a flying fuck about some artificially created welfare state on an insignificant chunk of land. Really I don't think you would have thought it to be a personally profitable idea to take the Gypses or Kurds and dump them somewhere kind of close sort of close but not really to (oil rich) Venezuala. They are allies to the US as welfare crackbabies are allies to the Democrats, and look how they both produce their share of violent thugs. Honestly, if they can't defend where they shit, fuck 'em. If they can, good for them.
I don't see how Israel should hold some intrinsic value to me (as an individual). I don't even understand how anyone can sympathize with the government of Israel, unless you are some wack job Pat Robertson Fundamentalist buying Rapture Insurance.
"Sanctions" can serve two purposes. 1.) To punish the populace of a foreign country for not overthrowing their government or for not pressuring their government into a capitulation. The logic is similar to terrorism (including WWII terror bombing). Terrorists kill civilians in order to punish the populace for not pressuring their government and sometimes to try to get them too. This was the reason for sanctions on Cuba, Iraq and Yugoslavia. 2.) As a stepping stone towards war. If you can not launch an attack outright you can introduce "sanctions" then a few years down the road proclaim that "they have not worked" and that this means that you must escalate into a full war. (So actually they have worked perfectly since they have provided you with a sellable casus belli.) I suspect this is the reason for sanctions on Iran. In this case however I suspect that a few years down the line when it comes the time to move to the next stage and attack that the US is going to be in no shape to do so, and so the attack won't actually happen.
I think Dondoolee put it pretty well.
In this case however I suspect that a few years down the line when it comes the time to move to the next stage and attack that the US is going to be in no shape to do so, and so the attack won't actually happen.
Knowing the American intellect these days it will probably happen anyway.
jmorris84: "Seph: Mind showing me or explaining to me where you have gotten that outlook on the daily life of your average Chinese person?"
I live in China, (and not in Beijing, Shanghai or Hong Kong) speak decent Chinese, and have exactly 1 foregin friend. This helps.
Dondoolee:Honestly, if they can't defend where they shit, fuck 'em. If they can, good for them.
If you gave me a choice between leaving my home, and gunning down a gang of robbers, I'd probably just leave.
It seems I have been overruled here. Thankfully, this will happen anyways.
Hooray for creating suffering for innumerable innocent civilians! Yay!
Thankfully, this will happen anyways.
It will happen, but you will come to regret it.
If it weren't for the Iranians who will get hurt in the process I would be, because of the detrimental effect the attack is going to have on the Empire, rooting for it to happen yesterday.