liberty student: Rubén:In the stone ages, survival came before government. But evolution has taken place and there is no need to go back in time. Therefore today government can come before survival. Are you saying that government comes before food and shelter? And what I mean by that is specifically two things. 1) Should all resources go to government demands before meeting basic human needs? 2) Is government more necessary than food or shelter?
Rubén:In the stone ages, survival came before government. But evolution has taken place and there is no need to go back in time. Therefore today government can come before survival.
Are you saying that government comes before food and shelter?
And what I mean by that is specifically two things.
1) Should all resources go to government demands before meeting basic human needs?
2) Is government more necessary than food or shelter?
1) No. Just some resources to be determined by society.
2) Food and shelter are the most necessary. But the government can help ensuring those necessities to all the population. Left to the market alone, not everyone will have food and shelter.
Art transcends ideology.
http://mises.org/Community/blogs/ruben
Jon Irenicus: Bailouts have nothing to do with the free market. They have to do with socialism for the rich. -Jon
Bailouts have nothing to do with the free market. They have to do with socialism for the rich.
-Jon
Perhaps so, but the Chrysler bailout helped Chrysler when it was sick, it could then recover and complete a successful merger with Daimler-Benz.
Rubén:It is unfortunate that you also treat your own family members as enemies, according to a recent post. According to that post, your family members seem to be happy with the many benefits they receive from an advanced society such as the one you are blessed to live in, and do not understand why are you being so harsh to them. They might look upon you strangely, but their love to you prevents them to consider you as an enemy.
Of course they are happy with their benefits. They steal from others using the government as an intermediary. They are cowards, who rely on someone else to wield the stick to threaten and steal. They don't regard me as an enemy yet, but they will as soon as I stop "paying my fair share" under threat of violence so that they can have my wealth transferred to them.
Most of my family are like you. Looters, murderers and thieves if not by action, then by endorsement.
Rubén:1) No. Just some resources to be determined by society.
1A. what came first, society or government?
1B. But what if there is only one resource. 1 Apple. Must they give it to Obama so they can have government and starve, or should they forego government and eat? You seem to believe that government comes before survival, so Obama should eat and the tribe should starve. Sound right?
Rubén:2) Food and shelter are the most necessary. But the government can help ensuring those necessities to all the population. Left to the market alone, not everyone will have food and shelter.
Wait a second. You said government comes before survival. Now you are saying survival comes before government. Which is it?
Can you name a government that has housed and fed everyone?
And if you can, then can you name one that respected the right to own property?
liberty student: Of course they are happy with their benefits. They steal from others using the government as an intermediary. They are cowards, who rely on someone else to wield the stick to threaten and steal. They don't regard me as an enemy yet, but they will as soon as I stop "paying my fair share" under threat of violence so that they can have my wealth transferred to them. Most of my family are like you. Looters, murderers and thieves if not by action, then by endorsement.
If you consider your own family as enemies, how can you expect to have friends outside of your kindred?
liberty student: aestheticbend:The point was not to let one's cynicism devolve into a belief in the inherent difference in the rational faculty of those who do think and those who do not. Why not? I'm not sensitive to compassion for ignorant statists who revel in their ignorance and empty headedness. Know your enemy and all that good stuff. Don't doubt that when absolute tyranny comes to where you live, these ignorant neighbors, coworkers and family members will be the ones pointing you out to the Stasi as a "wrong thinker".
aestheticbend:The point was not to let one's cynicism devolve into a belief in the inherent difference in the rational faculty of those who do think and those who do not.
Why not?
I'm not sensitive to compassion for ignorant statists who revel in their ignorance and empty headedness. Know your enemy and all that good stuff. Don't doubt that when absolute tyranny comes to where you live, these ignorant neighbors, coworkers and family members will be the ones pointing you out to the Stasi as a "wrong thinker".
I really don't even know what you think I think, because I was not supporting statism, but rather saying that statists still have a rational capacity or faculty,
My rejection is in the belief in the inherent inequality of the faculties of the minds individual human beings. This thought could be used to justify the transgression of liberty and rulership. What I am saying is that we have to distinguish between the idea of corrupt or misguided beings with a rational faculty with the idea that those who are corrupt or misguided are in some sense "natural slaves."
http://aestheticbend.blogspot.com/
Rubén:If you consider your own family as enemies, how can you expect to have friends outside of your kindred?
I don't need friends. I need partners for voluntary trade. Sex, love, food, shelter. I need trade partners, not biological relations or warm fuzzies. Please, grow up. This is an economics and philosophy forum, not the crying game.
liberty student: Can you name a government that has housed and fed everyone? And if you can, then can you name one that respected the right to own property?
According to you a week ago, Canada guarantees exactly that or is actually quite close to that, but at the expense of less market freedom. However I have not heard any evidence that Canada specifically denies the right to property.
aestheticbend:I really don't even know what you think I think, because I was not supporting statism, but rather saying that statists still have a rational capacity or faculty,
You misread me. I don't think you are a statist. I haven't even spent one fraction of a second considering it.
aestheticbend:My rejection is in the belief in the inherent inequality of the faculties of the minds individual human beings. This thought could be used to justify the transgression of liberty and rulership. What I am saying is that we have to distinguish between the idea of corrupt or misguided beings with a rational faculty with the idea that those who are corrupt or misguided are in some sense "natural slaves."
Whatever man. You can figure that out between mealtimes in the gulag, while I hatch an escape plan, ok?
Personally, I'm inclined to give no quarter to those who threaten to harm me, misguided, uninformed or evil.
Rubén:According to you a week ago, Canada guarantees exactly that or is actually quite close to that, but at the expense of less market freedom. However I have not heard any evidence that Canada specifically denies the right to property.
Canada does not house and feed everyone.
Canada taxes. Taxes are the confiscation of private property.
Care to dispute that?
Rubén: However I have not heard any evidence that Canada specifically denies the right to property.
What do you think taxation is exactly?
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
liberty student: Rubén:If you consider your own family as enemies, how can you expect to have friends outside of your kindred? I don't need friends. I need partners for voluntary trade. Sex, love, food, shelter. I need trade partners, not biological relations or warm fuzzies. Please, grow up. This is an economics and philosophy forum, not the crying game.
Succesful corporations are run by boards of directors who have friendly relations rather than enemies. Plato wrote about love. Friendship is an important part of economics and philosophy.
Rubén:Succesful corporations are run by boards of directors who have friendly relations rather than enemies. Plato wrote about love. Friendship is an important part of economics and philosophy.
Friendly relations are voluntary and profitable, not biological or legal.
GilesStratton:So no, appealing the masses is futile, the only thing we can do is reach the remnant. Lenin got it right with his whole idea of a vanguard, libertarians need to stop caring about the masses who cheer us being arrested for not paying taxes.
You can appeal to the masses with skillful rhetoric (something of a lost art even amongst politicians).
"He that struggles with us strengthens our nerves, and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper." Edmund Burke
While this thread seems to have moved off into a tangent, i think it has touched ever briefly on a very interesting discussion. The question how do we bring these ideas to the 'masses' is rather vague and i think can be interpreted in different ways. I would assume most of us are here to learn and talk and perhaps eventually, when and if we feel enlightened enough to, try and help others to do the same. It is easy to explain these thoughts to those whom already agree with the of liberty but it is very difficult to do so to one of the 'masses' who do not. Furthermore, it seems to be a rather popular theory that informing 'masses' of the truth is irrelevent because of their lack of capacity for it, inherent disbelief in it, or simply because as a individual it's just not of any concern to you what others do or think. That is entirely within your right to do however you please of course. I think it is quite ridiculous however to asssume that simply because you believe in liberty and natural rights that somehow the rules don't apply to you. That somehow the constantly growing and encroaching tendrils of the state will not harm you. I for one am fearful of the direction of the world today. Do i wish things were different? Do i believe that rightly we should live in a free market society? Do i wish there was no government? yes of course and but there is and that fact exists regardless of our beliefs and in fact completely independent of them but we are affected every day because of it's existence. If someone wants to know how to better the world then at least listen. Whether or not you choose to do anything about it is completely your own decision, but at the least give the discussion of such possibilities a chance and if you can't then stay out of them. It is sad to see every question of this sort dragged down by a "who hates the state more"/"who is more of a hardcore anarchist" pissing contest (excuse the vulgarity). i was under the impression that the Mises Institute was here simply to better the world by informing people and letting their own free will lead them to the correct conclusions... it's hard enough to get people to act on their own free will but nearly impossible when the only right information they receive is tainted with petty disagreement and elitism.
How nice for Chrysler. It still isn't a free market principle.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Explain how being born in some area bound by arbitary, invisible lines makes one kindred with others who live in the same area.
as a couple people have mentioned already: the problem isn't one of spreading the word. The problem is that people are basically stupid. In every developed nation there is a correlation between average IQ and average income per capita. I think the only long term solution is to start a nation-state with a favorable tax structure to attract business and then limit immigration to intelligent people. Basically like singapore. Easy to immigrate if you are an educated professional.
Are you defending government?
There can't be an ideal mix... unless of course with Panarchy. Though even then it wouldn't be ideal for everyone, cause not everyone is smarter enough to know what is best for them. This doesn't mean that we can decide for them. Though if they want, we can help them make the decision.
You're in favour of bailout's?
Hmm... if everyone is like you, I'm going to start a business. Doesn't matter how well I go, cause If I'm about to fail, the government will reimberse me... because, what, they like the number of businesses they have?
They don't want to get on the masses badside?
It's only a matter of time before the market collapses. Why delay it further? When can we move to a standard that's actually worth something? Like the gold standard?
I don't know much about the american currency (I'm not american) but in my country, if you mealt the coins they are actually worth more than the 'value' of the coin!
So they outlawed melting of coins!!!
(Sorry in advance, we're on different GMT's so I am going to be quoting quite a few people, sorry for not quoting you, couldn't quote the whole topic!!!)
Not only do they want to enslave you.
You're already enslaved.
Anyone that lives under a goverment that involuntarily taxes it's people is by definition (for lack of a better word) bad.
Panarchy
Hahahah... Aw man!
Can you sign that post?
Classic!
Evolution has taken place? More like devolution!
Tax is theft. Taking money/goods/assets from people with force or the threat of force is theft.
Jon, hate to say it, but I think he was talking about your family being your kindred.
Sorry if I'm wrong.
I can only hope that some of what I've said in my 'quoting with commentry' helps.
Woh woh woh, are you saying that just because you pass some arbitary test that your automatically smart?
Intelligence can't be measured by a single test.
At least not with our technology.
Unless part of the test is measuring your ability to cheat?
I think he meant LS's fellow Canadians.
^Yeah, I understand! I was merely being jocular!
Sorry about that guys. Hope you still understand the message. Obivously this forum's quoting ability is still buggy.
The quoting works fine, but you should include the content of the post you are quoting, so we dont have to go back and check each response to see what it relates to.
This software is "different". But I like it. A little.
Sorry, my mistake.
I've got thousands of posts on other forums, guess I was to used to it automatically quoteing when I click the quote or reply button.
Anyways, back to topic!
Rubén: liberty student: Care to define that minimal role of the state that is consistent with the Obama campaign and soon-to-be Presidency? Elementary roles like health, education, defense and assurance that the population won't starve. Something similar to what is already in place in Canada or Scandinavia, which seems an ideal mix that guarantees the survival of its population while at the same time provides enough market freedom for anything else. For example, the bailout to General Motors would be preferable than just letting that company die with the dead cost of closing down hundreds of plants that were very expensive to build and would not be able to be used for other endeavors.
liberty student: Care to define that minimal role of the state that is consistent with the Obama campaign and soon-to-be Presidency?
Care to define that minimal role of the state that is consistent with the Obama campaign and soon-to-be Presidency?
Elementary roles like health, education, defense and assurance that the population won't starve. Something similar to what is already in place in Canada or Scandinavia, which seems an ideal mix that guarantees the survival of its population while at the same time provides enough market freedom for anything else.
For example, the bailout to General Motors would be preferable than just letting that company die with the dead cost of closing down hundreds of plants that were very expensive to build and would not be able to be used for other endeavors.
/facepalm
DrunknMunky:/facepalm
No doubt. And he refuses to acknowledge the costs of thousands of jobs lost to bailout a failed GM. Or that taxes are theft. Or that the government caused the crisis through the Austrian business cycle, or that democracy is mob rule or any other # of things. He's here only to promote his far left socialist ideals.
"How do we get the message across?"
Austrians need to be clear and concise. :
(1) free markets vs.interventionism
(2) individual liberty vs. interventionism
Keep these arguments separated from one another. The one is economic, the other philosophical. Clearly they overlap in countless ways, but the message will be much clearer and easier to understand by keeping these distinct.
Rubén: 1) No. Just some resources to be determined by society. 2) Food and shelter are the most necessary. But the government can help ensuring those necessities to all the population. Left to the market alone, not everyone will have food and shelter.
Why does the government need to take my hard earned money and give it to the lazy? Left to the market alone, those who are indeed needy (because of some debilitating and limiting problem) would be taken care of by charity and those who are lazy would either have to go get a job or eventually (I am sorry if this sounds cruel) starve/freeze to death.
Sometimes "majority" simply means that all the fools are on the same side
Rubén:Left to the market alone, not everyone will have food and shelter.
Really? Do you have any proof to back up this "fact"?
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
GilesStratton:And funnily enough the only reason Scandanavia is slightly more prosperous than other areas in Europe is due a relatively unregulated market.
Scandinavia and Canada also have natural resources to finance the socialism. But even they haven't been able to come up with the health care close to the quality of that of the US (semi socialized as it is)
If I hear not allowed much oftener; said Sam, I'm going to get angry.
J.R.R.Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Canadian health care sucks with regards to quality and service. Dying on a waiting list is totally free.
liberty student: Canadian health care sucks with regards to quality and service. Dying on a waiting list is totally free.
For all the rhetoric of Canada not having a two tier system, the system systematically serves those with connections above those with none. So, if you are in Canada, make sure you get a GP with connections if you do not want to be stuck on a waiting list. If your GP knows people you do not have to wait very long, if they are unconnected and have no prestige in the profession, well you will be stuck waiting for quite a long time, for any kind of surgery.
liberty student:Canadian health care sucks with regards to quality and service. Dying on a waiting list is totally free.
And yet Canada serves as an example of health care for all for many people here in the US. That's just shows how ignorant many American are even to what's happening just across the border.
liberty student: DrunknMunky:/facepalm No doubt. And he refuses to acknowledge the costs of thousands of jobs lost to bailout a failed GM. Or that taxes are theft. Or that the government caused the crisis through the Austrian business cycle, or that democracy is mob rule or any other # of things. He's here only to promote his far left socialist ideals.
At this point, I can't help but to feel that he's trolling.
Steve: liberty student: DrunknMunky:/facepalm No doubt. And he refuses to acknowledge the costs of thousands of jobs lost to bailout a failed GM. Or that taxes are theft. Or that the government caused the crisis through the Austrian business cycle, or that democracy is mob rule or any other # of things. He's here only to promote his far left socialist ideals. At this point, I can't help but to feel that he's trolling.
Likewise.
It is hopeless to try to educate some people. Some people will support statism until they starve. Personally, I only try to debate with people who are interested and open-minded.