chloe732: Mansoor H. Khan:Here (Pakistan) is a real laboratory of an capness in the real world existing right now. Mansoor, this sounds like it could be an interesting topic. Why don't you start a new thread since this one has wondered from discussion of "thrift"?
Mansoor H. Khan:Here (Pakistan) is a real laboratory of an capness in the real world existing right now.
Mansoor, this sounds like it could be an interesting topic. Why don't you start a new thread since this one has wondered from discussion of "thrift"?
There is not much of a state in Pakistan:
1) Tax laws are ignored. No enforcement!
2) Legal Tender Laws can be safely ignored but most businesses still transact in the government issued currency. Austrian prediction of other private currencies spontaneously showing up have NOT come true there.
3) Other Laws are ignored / enforced (very little to non-existent protection of life and property). It is truly a rule by barrel of gun of the local warlord / thugs. There are lots of jobs for thugs.
4) intervention of outside governments does NOT impact most people at all by far!
5) You guys need to visit there and see how AnCapness works in practice.
6) All that religious zealotry stuff you think is widespread it is NOT it is just fodder for international media. I have live there I know. And if you don't trust me just go there or send a team of Austrian economists to look around.
7) Then tell me what you think.
Mansoor
The reach of the government would still be there in big matters rather than small ones.
Pakistani blocking of foreign investment and foreign trade would still have an impact on the small man.
But isn't capitalism still involving property registration and contract enforcement, whether the government or third-party vouchers does it? If Pakistan is not giving a proper property registration system to all those local people, how will banks lend money to people? They don't have much proof. How do business contracts get enforced in rural Pakistan?
All anarchy and no capitalism is just a regression back to serfdom and collectivization, and a system where division of labour and specialization does not exist.
You need to do more research.
Whether the laws are set by Islamabad, or by some local warlord, is irrelevant and still constitutes government. Pakistan does not resemble an anarcho-capitalist society, and its warlordism did not spawn out of anarchy. It would be like claiming that Afghanistan was an anarchic society due to warlordism, when it was not. Historically, liberalism has come after warlordism: Nation Wrecking in Afghanistan.
U.S. aid, both fiscal and military, does impact the daily lives of the average Pakistani. U.S. aid has perpetuated the struggle between the central government and the peripheral local governments, which has created a level of regime uncertainty in Pakistan. Regime uncertainty is an obstacle to entrepreneurship. U.S. aid has propped up governments which otherwise may have never existed.
The bottom line is that Pakistan is not a good example of anarcho-capitalism.
Mansoor H. Khan:2) Legal Tender Laws can be safely ignored but most businesses still transact in the government issued currency. Austrian prediction of other private currencies spontaneously showing up have NOT come true there.
Gersham's Law. Bad money drives out good money. If the government issued fiat currency is valued over other forms of money then it is government issued fiat currency which will circulate the most. This is why multiple private currencies have not propped up in almost any country in the world, except in countries where their own currency has lost all value - well, in the case of Zimbabwe they used neighboring fiat currencies.
Prateek Sanjay: The reach of the government would still be there in big matters rather than small ones. Pakistani blocking of foreign investment and foreign trade would still have an impact on the small man. But isn't capitalism still involving property registration and contract enforcement, whether the government or third-party vouchers does it? If Pakistan is not giving a proper property registration system to all those local people, how will banks lend money to people? They don't have much proof. How do business contracts get enforced in rural Pakistan? All anarchy and no capitalism is just a regression back to serfdom and collectivization, and a system where division of labour and specialization does not exist.
Exactly my point = Pakistan = An Cap Society
They have 180 million people. Most cannot even spell the word government. Government does have a minor role in Karachi and Lahore (probably only 10% of the population).
It is very An Capp outside Karachi and Lahore.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: Whether the laws are set by Islamabad, or by some local warlord, is irrelevant and still constitutes government. Pakistan does not resemble an anarcho-capitalist society, and its warlordism did not spawn out of anarchy. It would be like claiming that Afghanistan was an anarchic society due to warlordism, when it was not. Historically, liberalism has come after warlordism: Nation Wrecking in Afghanistan. U.S. aid, both fiscal and military, does impact the daily lives of the average Pakistani. U.S. aid has perpetuated the struggle between the central government and the peripheral local governments, which has created a level of regime uncertainty in Pakistan. Regime uncertainty is an obstacle to entrepreneurship. U.S. aid has propped up governments which otherwise may have never existed. The bottom line is that Pakistan is not a good example of anarcho-capitalism. Mansoor H. Khan:2) Legal Tender Laws can be safely ignored but most businesses still transact in the government issued currency. Austrian prediction of other private currencies spontaneously showing up have NOT come true there. Gersham's Law. Bad money drives out good money. If the government issued fiat currency is valued over other forms of money then it is government issued fiat currency which will circulate the most. This is why multiple private currencies have not propped up in almost any country in the world, except in countries where their own currency has lost all value - well, in the case of Zimbabwe they used neighboring fiat currencies.
Also, it is not even warlords most places. Just Tribal Chiefs and/or simply thugs!
Mansoor H. Khan: They have 180 million people. Most cannot even spell the word government. Government does have a minor role in Karachi and Lahore (probably only 10% of the population). It is very An Capp outside Karachi and Lahore. Also, it is not even warlords most places. Just Tribal Chiefs and/or simply thugs! Mansoor
I don' want to be rude, but please read everything I wrote. I will quote for you:
Whether the laws are set by Islamabad, or by some local warlord, is irrelevant and still constitutes government. Pakistan does not resemble an anarcho-capitalist society, and its warlordism did not spawn out of anarchy.
JosephBright: You need to do more research.
You need to tavel more and observe / experience the real world laboratories all over the globe.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: Mansoor H. Khan: They have 180 million people. Most cannot even spell the word government. Government does have a minor role in Karachi and Lahore (probably only 10% of the population). It is very An Capp outside Karachi and Lahore. Also, it is not even warlords most places. Just Tribal Chiefs and/or simply thugs! Mansoor I don' want to be rude, but please read everything I wrote. I will quote for you: Whether the laws are set by Islamabad, or by some local warlord, is irrelevant and still constitutes government. Pakistan does not resemble an anarcho-capitalist society, and its warlordism did not spawn out of anarchy.
It is not warlords. They are more like tribal chiefs. They are called waderas.
Mansoor H. Khan: It is not warlords. They are more like tribal chiefs. They are called waderas. Mansoor
Oh come on I wouldn't put pakistan as any example of an Ancap society that's really stretching it. From Pakistan myself and I see what you're trying to get at- but the chiefs still dictate their will onto others which is the antihesis of an ancap society. Pakistan's entire history also has some of the most corrupt governments that have ever graced themselves onto the scene of states. Lol if you've been to Pakistani cities before then I'm sure you've had the experience of having to pay a bribe to the police there if they've stopped you for anything.
Some of the most violent people in Pakistan are the ones that are associated with any political party. Its more akin to joining a gang over here in the states.
Um, what's the point of splitting hairs? My point still stands. Why don't you actually address my post?
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: Mansoor H. Khan: It is not warlords. They are more like tribal chiefs. They are called waderas. Mansoor Um, what's the point of splitting hairs? My point still stands. Why don't you actually address my post?
Address what? You use fancy / vague words like "liberalism" or "socialism" which mean nothing to an average pakistani. Give me a very specific question and I will try to answer the best I can.
Mansoor H. Khan: Address what? You use fancy / vague words like "liberalism" or "socialism" which mean nothing to an average pakistani. Give me a very specific question and I will try to answer the best I can. Mansoor
I didn't ask you any questions. I commented on your post, and none of my terms are vague. What you describe is not anarchic in any way. You have yet to address the fact that a government is a government whether it is centralized in Islamabad or it's provided by a warlord, tribal chief or what have you. All you are doing is purposefully evading arguments.
If that's what you plan to do, what was the point of even starting the thread?
I can just as easily make the argument that Zimbabawe is the perfect example of a Keynesian society.
auctionguy10: Mansoor H. Khan: It is not warlords. They are more like tribal chiefs. They are called waderas. Mansoor Oh come on I wouldn't put pakistan as any example of an Ancap society that's really stretching it. From Pakistan myself and I see what you're trying to get at- but the chiefs still dictate their will onto others which is the antihesis of an ancap society. Pakistan's entire history also has some of the most corrupt governments that have ever graced themselves onto the scene of states. Lol if you've been to Pakistani cities before then I'm sure you've had the experience of having to pay a bribe to the police there if they've stopped you for anything. Some of the most violent people in Pakistan are the ones that are associated with any political party. Its more akin to joining a gang over here in the states.
Ok. Outside of karachi and lahore (90% of the 180 million folks). It is mostly tribal chief rule and yes they dictate their will in return for making you a part of their community / tribe. They try to protect your life and property but you must obey them. This is how all society's started. Pretty much.
Is this what you want to go back to?
Mansoor H. Khan: Ok. Outside of karachi and lahore (90% of the 180 million folks). It is mostly tribal chief rule and yes they dictate their will in return for making you a part of their community / tribe.
Ok. Outside of karachi and lahore (90% of the 180 million folks). It is mostly tribal chief rule and yes they dictate their will in return for making you a part of their community / tribe.
Ah yes, the definition of anarchy.
Mansoor H. Khan: auctionguy10: Mansoor H. Khan: It is not warlords. They are more like tribal chiefs. They are called waderas. Mansoor Oh come on I wouldn't put pakistan as any example of an Ancap society that's really stretching it. From Pakistan myself and I see what you're trying to get at- but the chiefs still dictate their will onto others which is the antihesis of an ancap society. Pakistan's entire history also has some of the most corrupt governments that have ever graced themselves onto the scene of states. Lol if you've been to Pakistani cities before then I'm sure you've had the experience of having to pay a bribe to the police there if they've stopped you for anything. Some of the most violent people in Pakistan are the ones that are associated with any political party. Its more akin to joining a gang over here in the states. Ok. Outside of karachi and lahore (90% of the 180 million folks). It is mostly tribal chief rule and yes they dictate their will in return for making you a part of their community / tribe. They try to protect your life and property but you must obey them. This is how all society's started. Pretty much. Is this what you want to go back to? Mansoor
Don't you see that what you described is exactly the opposite of what we're talking about when we mention an Ancap society? Where someone dictates their will on you in return for being a part of their community(a citizen). The tribal chiefs are mini-governments. Your analogy is false. Essentially there is little distinction between Pakistani government and a tribal government other than the technology and money involved. An Ancap society is to get away from this type of society. To ask me if that's what we want to go back to doesn't make sense.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán: Mansoor H. Khan: Ok. Outside of karachi and lahore (90% of the 180 million folks). It is mostly tribal chief rule and yes they dictate their will in return for making you a part of their community / tribe. Ah yes, the definition of anarchy.
Well it’s no “ancap” society but yet, at the very least, a very loose association of very small states (tribes), run according to Hoppean monarchical principles. So, they should be very liberal and advanced.
Sorry, but its a reach that probably wouldn't fit the data from a sociological perspective. Here's what I mean. Do the locals have no say in who rules over a certain locality; elder or some warlord? Do the locals have the recognized authority to personal secession? If no on these two questions then there's not an anarchy in Pakistan of any type.
"The power of liberty going forward is in decentralization. Not in leaders, but in decentralized activism. In a market process." -- liberty student
Mansoor H. Khan: JosephBright: You need to do more research. You need to tavel more and observe / experience the real world laboratories all over the globe. Mansoor
I could observe until the cows come home, but without theory I would not be able to make sense of what I am experiencing.
JosephBright: Mansoor H. Khan: JosephBright: You need to do more research. You need to tavel more and observe / experience the real world laboratories all over the globe. Mansoor I could observe until the cows come home, but without theory I would not be able to make sense of what I am experiencing.
your theory is called an cap ness
auctionguy10: Mansoor H. Khan: auctionguy10: Mansoor H. Khan: It is not warlords. They are more like tribal chiefs. They are called waderas. Mansoor Oh come on I wouldn't put pakistan as any example of an Ancap society that's really stretching it. From Pakistan myself and I see what you're trying to get at- but the chiefs still dictate their will onto others which is the antihesis of an ancap society. Pakistan's entire history also has some of the most corrupt governments that have ever graced themselves onto the scene of states. Lol if you've been to Pakistani cities before then I'm sure you've had the experience of having to pay a bribe to the police there if they've stopped you for anything. Some of the most violent people in Pakistan are the ones that are associated with any political party. Its more akin to joining a gang over here in the states. Ok. Outside of karachi and lahore (90% of the 180 million folks). It is mostly tribal chief rule and yes they dictate their will in return for making you a part of their community / tribe. They try to protect your life and property but you must obey them. This is how all society's started. Pretty much. Is this what you want to go back to? Mansoor Don't you see that what you described is exactly the opposite of what we're talking about when we mention an Ancap society? Where someone dictates their will on you in return for being a part of their community(a citizen). The tribal chiefs are mini-governments. Your analogy is false. Essentially there is little distinction between Pakistani government and a tribal government other than the technology and money involved. An Ancap society is to get away from this type of society. To ask me if that's what we want to go back to doesn't make sense.
has an cap society EVER happened on earth?
You're not going to stop babbling shit on this forum, are you? You're obviously a bored troll.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Mansoor H. Khan: JosephBright: Mansoor H. Khan: JosephBright: You need to do more research. You need to tavel more and observe / experience the real world laboratories all over the globe. Mansoor I could observe until the cows come home, but without theory I would not be able to make sense of what I am experiencing. your theory is called an cap ness
Well, I didn't expect anyone so intellectually dishonest to understand my point. Perhaps when you get tired of trolling these forums, you might want to do a little soul searching and actually try to understand what anarcho-capitalism is, how Austrian economics works, and how to compose a proper argument.
JosephBright: Mansoor H. Khan: JosephBright: Mansoor H. Khan: JosephBright: You need to do more research. You need to tavel more and observe / experience the real world laboratories all over the globe. Mansoor I could observe until the cows come home, but without theory I would not be able to make sense of what I am experiencing. your theory is called an cap ness Well, I didn't expect anyone so intellectually dishonest to understand my point. Perhaps when you get tired of trolling these forums, you might want to do a little soul searching and actually try to understand what anarcho-capitalism is, how Austrian economics works, and how to compose a proper argument.
Ok. then give me list of 10 or less bullet points which define an capness and please give a real world example (today or historical).
Mansoor H. Khan: Ok. then give me list of 10 or less bullet points which define an capness and please give a real world example (today or historical).
Here's a better idea. You do some reading and provide the forum with a bullet point list that describes anarcho-Capitalism. If you're really interested in this, or any other, AE / libertarian subject, you would be motivated to do this on your own.
"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner. "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.
chloe732: Mansoor H. Khan: Ok. then give me list of 10 or less bullet points which define an capness and please give a real world example (today or historical). Here's a better idea. You do some reading and provide the forum with a bullet point list that describes anarcho-Capitalism. If you're really interested in this, or any other, AE / libertarian subject, you would be motivated to do this on your own.
Ok.
Mansoor H. Khan: has an cap society EVER happened on earth? Mansoor
Medieval Iceland is quite close, just to start you off. After 290 years, religion caused them to stray from the anarchic principle. Fees for protection were exempted for the Catholic church (IIRC) and power consolidated among a few tribal leaders. The people then begged the King of Denmark to rule in the hopes of a return to stability. Trust me, there is plenty more beyond that for you to learn.
Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave.—Karl Kraus.
E. R. Olovetto: Mansoor H. Khan: has an cap society EVER happened on earth? Mansoor Medieval Iceland is quite close, just to start you off. After 290 years, religion caused them to stray from the anarchic principle. Fees for protection were exempted for the Catholic church (IIRC) and power consolidated among a few tribal leaders. The people then begged the King of Denmark to rule in the hopes of a return to stability. Trust me, there is plenty more beyond that for you to learn.
Ok. I just read it. I got a sense of the practicality of your vision. One thing did hit me though. Why is it not possible for a good man (consumer driven /entrepreneurial individual) to make to head of state / member of Legislature in the current system? You just accept that as given.
Mansoor, I think you will find this article to be very helpful in your studies:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/long/long11.html
Mansoor H. Khan: E. R. Olovetto: Mansoor H. Khan: has an cap society EVER happened on earth? Mansoor Medieval Iceland is quite close, just to start you off. After 290 years, religion caused them to stray from the anarchic principle. Fees for protection were exempted for the Catholic church (IIRC) and power consolidated among a few tribal leaders. The people then begged the King of Denmark to rule in the hopes of a return to stability. Trust me, there is plenty more beyond that for you to learn. Ok. I just read it. I got a sense of the practicality of your vision. One thing did hit me though. Why is it not possible for a good man (consumer driven /entrepreneurial individual) to make to head of state / member of Legislature in the current system? You just accept that as given. Mansoor
Why don't we have philosopher kings? I don't know man. Democracy is just a euphemism for majoritarianism. The "consumer input" to a democratic republic is a popularity contest every 2,4,6? years. Then with the appointment of lifetime judges, legislators straying from the constitution, unregulated appointment to bureaucratic positions such as with the FCC, we see it is not a model made with the consumer in mind.
Mansoor H. Khan:Ok. I just read it. I got a sense of the practicality of your vision. One thing did hit me though. Why is it not possible for a good man (consumer driven /entrepreneurial individual) to make to head of state / member of Legislature in the current system? You just accept that as given.
I can give you the short answer. Because humans are not omniscient. Individuals, even a group of them, are not able to know all the details of everyday market life and everything that needs to happen on a second by second, hour by hour, day by day, even month by month, year by year, etc.... basis. That's why society involves division of labor to increase production, etc., etc....
Mansoor H. Khan:has an cap society EVER happened on earth?
This is a logical fallacy. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean that it can't.
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.—Ludwig von Mises
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.
JosephBright:Perhaps when you get tired of trolling these forums, you might want to do a little soul searching and actually try to understand what anarcho-capitalism is, how Austrian economics works, and how to compose a proper argument.
Jon Irenicus: You're not going to stop babbling shit on this forum, are you? You're obviously a bored troll.
There is no such thing as trolls. You guys are just intolerant. Oh yea - and don't forget dogmatic! Stop trying to "force" your anarchy on dis innocent and well meaning individual, who has no other aims than too diligently learn and ponder your responses in depth. Fooorrr ssshhhhammme!
Conza88: JosephBright:Perhaps when you get tired of trolling these forums, you might want to do a little soul searching and actually try to understand what anarcho-capitalism is, how Austrian economics works, and how to compose a proper argument. Jon Irenicus: You're not going to stop babbling shit on this forum, are you? You're obviously a bored troll. There is no such thing as trollz. You guys r just intolerant. Oh yea - and don't forgeet dogmatic! Stop trying to "force" ur anarchy on dis innocent and well meaning individual, who has no other aims dan too diligently learn and ponder ur responses in depth. Shame on yooooouuuuuss
There is no such thing as trollz. You guys r just intolerant. Oh yea - and don't forgeet dogmatic! Stop trying to "force" ur anarchy on dis innocent and well meaning individual, who has no other aims dan too diligently learn and ponder ur responses in depth. Shame on yooooouuuuuss
I don't appreciate being mocked.
Grayson Lilburne:I don't appreciate being mocked.
It's the position I was mocking. If anyone happens to hold the same one, I don't see how that's my fault.
If I some how offended you, I apologise.
Mansoor H. Khan: 7) Then tell me what you think. Mansoor
Just a quick question, what books or resources have you read on anarcho-capitalism? Just interested, thanks.
Grayson Lilburne: Conza88: JosephBright:Perhaps when you get tired of trolling these forums, you might want to do a little soul searching and actually try to understand what anarcho-capitalism is, how Austrian economics works, and how to compose a proper argument. Jon Irenicus: You're not going to stop babbling shit on this forum, are you? You're obviously a bored troll. There is no such thing as trollz. You guys r just intolerant. Oh yea - and don't forgeet dogmatic! Stop trying to "force" ur anarchy on dis innocent and well meaning individual, who has no other aims dan too diligently learn and ponder ur responses in depth. Shame on yooooouuuuuss I don't appreciate being mocked.
Conza88:It's the position I was mocking.
Your parody ridicules the exact policy I just underscored (right down to the key words I chose) and which you just zealously objected to. So I don't believe you. But I'm willing to let it drop, so long as you refrain from ridiculing me or my decisions regarding forum policy in the future.
That was literally over a day ago. I guess the characture was still in the back of my mind.
Now, that it's been brought up - how about you answer those legitimate questions? I notice you were referring to me in your post, using the exact words I used.
"I don't appreciate being mocked" either.
Grayson Lilburne:But I'm willing to let it drop, so long as you refrain from ridiculing me or my decisions regarding forum policy in the future.
Does Mansoor resemble a troll? Do you think he is here to engage in an intelligent discussion, is he being intellectual honest, or open to persuasion?
Is there by any chance a troll rating system or chart we can compare alleged trolls to?