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why I am not "anarcho-capitalist"

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Conza88:

Conza88:
Who killed Socrates and Jesus Christ?

ama gi:
What makes you think that private agencies would not kill Socrates and Jesus Christ?

I'm glad you said private agencies; and not private defense agencies - since they would be iniating violence, thus not defending - but aggressing.

This argument is nothing but a vicious circle. You define all of the terms in such a neat way as to never yield an undesired consequence.

 

Conza88:
They would not be attempting to apply the NAP (basic law code), and thus would be outlaw agencies.

Who is the supreme arbiter who outlaws PDAs? Furthermore, why would PDAs have to enforce the NAP, and libertarian ethics as opposed to, for the sake of example, Sharia law to remain lawful(I don't even understand how PDAs can be "lawful" because they essentially get to define their own laws to enforce) PDAs?

 

Conza88:
For bad decisions there would be an appeal process. The bad decision makers / facilitators reputation would suffer, their customer base would shrink and should they continue, they'll fail.

You assume that an appeal process would even be possible.

Abstract liberty, like other mere abstractions, is not to be found.

          - Edmund Burke

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filc replied on Mon, Dec 21 2009 11:39 PM

Lam your entire offense right now is an appeal to ignorance.

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Conza88 replied on Mon, Dec 21 2009 11:55 PM

Conza88:

Conza88:
Who killed Socrates and Jesus Christ?

ama gi:
What makes you think that private agencies would not kill Socrates and Jesus Christ?

I'm glad you said private agencies; and not private defense agencies - since they would be iniating violence, thus not defending - but aggressing.

laminustacitus:
This argument is nothing but a vicious circle. You define all of the terms in such a neat way as to never yield an undesired consequence.

No it's not. Hil-arious. All the terms are properly defined - and as I just said above, there could be undesired consequences (initiating violence / aggression / killing Socrates and Jesus Christ)... but the individuals who did so, even with the backing of whatever agencies are not justified.

laminustacitus:
Who is the supreme arbiter who outlaws PDAs?

Not who, but what. It is objective and accessible to every purposefully acting individual. Want to take a guess?

Are you asking about - who would be the final decision maker in terms of a private property dispute?

laminustacitus:

Conza88:
For bad decisions there would be an appeal process. The bad decision makers / facilitators reputation would suffer, their customer base would shrink and should they continue, they'll fail.

You assume that an appeal process would even be possible.

Why would it not be?

One common objection to the feasibility of marketable protection (its desirability is not the problem here) runs as follows: Suppose that Jones subscribes to Defense Agency X and Smith subscribes to Defense Agency Y. (We will assume for convenience that the defense agency includes a police force and a court or courts, although in practice these two functions might well be performed by separate firms.) Smith alleges that he has been assaulted, or robbed, by Jones; Jones denies the charge. How, then, is justice to be dispensed?

Clearly, Smith will file charges against Jones and institute suit or trial proceedings in the Y court system. Jones is invited to defend himself against the charges, although there can be no subpoena power, since any sort of force used against a man not yet convicted of a crime is itself an invasive and criminal act that could not be consonant with the free society we have been postulating. If Jones is declared innocent, or if he is declared guilty and consents to the finding, then there if no problem on this level, and the Y courts then institute suitable measures of punishment.[3]

But what if Jones challenges the finding? In that case, he can either take the case to his X court system, or take it directly to a privately competitive Appeals Court of a type that will undoubtedly spring up in abundance on the market to fill the great need for such tribunals. Probably there will be just a few Appeals Court systems, far fewer than the number of primary courts, and each of the lower courts will boast to its customers about being members of those Appeals Court systems noted for their efficiency and probity. The Appeals Court decision can then be taken by the society as binding. Indeed, in the basic legal code of the free society, there probably would be enshrined some such clause as that the decision of any two courts will be considered binding, i.e., will be the point at which the court will be able to take action against the party adjudged guilty.[4]

Every legal system needs some sort of socially-agreed-upon cutoff point, a point at which judicial procedure stops and punishment against the convicted criminal begins. But a single monopoly court of ultimate decision-making need not be imposed and of course cannot be in a free society; and a libertarian legal code might well have a two-court cutoff point, since there are always two contesting parties, the plaintiff and the defendant.

filc:

Lam your entire offense right now is an appeal to ignorance.

Disappointing aye.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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laminustacitus:

liberty student:

I think Lam indicated before that he likes to receive subsidies and that he is entitled to them by nature of the work he does.

Because throwing vague, petty ad hominem insults around really does prove your argument.  Please grow up, and stop this immature mud-slinging.

I wasn't aware you were against government subsidies.  I am pretty sure you have defended them here before.  Specifically for the funding of science IIRC.  I'd look for sources but the forum search doesn't work.

Do you oppose public funding of science and not seek any grants for your own work?

 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Sage replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 10:45 AM

laminustacitus:
Polycentric authority, even polycentric legal authority, does not equal anarcho-capitalist.  If that were so, most of European history prior to the Reformation would be anarcho-capitalist.  Furthermore, polycentric authority can exist within a state, as shown by Elinor Ostrom's work on the preservation of common pool resources.

I agree with this. Anarchy/polycentrism need not be libertarian. And I would argue that the State is a polycentric order (there's no government ruling over the politicians).

laminustacitus:
This is not a historical analysis, rather it is a purely theoretical one.

Section 4 (p.17-41) is a documentation of the historical evidence.

laminustacitus:
Overall, it would be a lot easier to prove my post unsound by simply giving a single example of a true anarcho-capitalist society lasting.

No such evidence exists: there has never been a perfectly libertarian market anarchy. But there is evidence of anarchies existing with varying degrees of libertarianness. I take the historical evidence to merely show that stateless societies work, and that they can be desirable. Moreover, I don't think the historical evidence alone is conclusive; the theoretical arguments are primary, whereas historical evidence is only illustrative.

laminustacitus:
If my argument is wrong, then it is not invalid, rather it is unsound.

Correct, sir. I was thinking of this.

laminustacitus:
If there is one big reason for which I reject market-anarchy, it is for the fact that it essentially demands that a system be applied to a society, without any regard for the institutions at play,  thus rejecting the only proven method of social change: gradual piecemeal change.

I agree, market anarchy would be unappealing if it actually required this. But I see no reason to think that it does.

Remember that demanding radical change is not the same thing as actual radical change. W.L. Garrison: "Urge immediate abolition as earnestly as we may, it will, alas! be gradual abolition in the end. We have never said that slavery would be overthrown by a single blow; that it ought to be, we shall always contend." I don't see that being a radical abolitionist entails the rejection of gradual piecemeal change. As Long writes:

[T]he swiftness of the process, the radicalness of the final goal, and the degree of explicitness about the final goal, are three different things. The process many market anarchists advocate is one of “building new institutions within the shell of the old,” a gradual process of replacement and education rather than an overnight revolution. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn't point explicitly to the desirability of our intended final goal as part of our propaganda to get people involved in working toward it.

So being a radical (i.e. focusing on the root, rather than symptoms) does not necessarily entail immediate social change. In a tradeoff between swiftness and effectiveness, I would choose the latter. See also my post here.

Do you see yourself as making a strategic objection to market anarchism? That is, you accept that MA is the most just and efficient society, but think that it would be difficult or impossible to implement?

laminustacitus:
When we are in a day in which market-anarchy is a viable alternative, I might become one, but it is not a viable alternative in today's situation.

But the viability of market anarchism is not some independent variable outside of our control. Rather, it is directly related to our efforts in educating people and building alternative institutions. So why not become a market anarchist and work toward making it a viable alternative? Join us! Your present attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy: anarchism is not a viable alternative, so I won't become one; but not becoming an anarchist is what prevents it from being a viable alternative!

John McCain said that "if you’re disappointed with the mistakes of government, join its ranks and work to correct them." This argument doesn't work for government, because government's flaws cannot be corrected, but it does work for the libertarian movement: if you're disappointed with the libertarian movement, join us and help make it better.

AnalyticalAnarchism.net - The Positive Political Economy of Anarchism

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Sage replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 12:09 PM

laminustacitus:
Overall, it would be a lot easier to prove my post unsound by simply giving a single example of a true anarcho-capitalist society lasting. Keep in mind, I do not deny that such systems can exist, really I deny that they can exist, and prove a stable social framework for an extended period of time.

Another point to remember is that anarchy is omnipresent: every social system must have at least some anarchic relationships. For example, different governments are in a state of international anarchy, the agents of a government are in a state of anarchy vis-à-vis each other, etc. So if any stable social framework is possible at all, then it must be possible under anarchy. On this see Cuzán and Plauché.

AnalyticalAnarchism.net - The Positive Political Economy of Anarchism

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ama gi replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 4:29 PM

laminustacitus:
Who is the supreme arbiter who outlaws PDAs? Furthermore, why would PDAs have to enforce the NAP, and libertarian ethics as opposed to, for the sake of example, Sharia law to remain lawful(I don't even understand how PDAs can be "lawful" because they essentially get to define their own laws to enforce) PDAs?

Right.  There needs to be a supreme arbiter that can resolve property disputes; otherwise a socio-economic system based on property fails.

And, for the sake of freedom, that supreme arbiter needs to be based on majority consensus, rather than imposed on us against our will.

"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."

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tacoface replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 4:32 PM

Are you retarded?

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ama gi  -" we need a dictator-for-life that we all chose"

nir g -"consumer sovereignty in the justice market"

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Sage replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 4:48 PM

ama gi:
Right.  There needs to be a supreme arbiter that can resolve property disputes; otherwise a socio-economic system based on property fails.

I take it you haven't read the greatest article on market anarchism ever written, Roderick Long's "Market Anarchism as Constitutionalism"?

AnalyticalAnarchism.net - The Positive Political Economy of Anarchism

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AJ replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 5:13 PM

ama gi:
There needs to be a supreme arbiter that can resolve property disputes; otherwise a socio-economic system based on property fails.

ALERT:

"There needs to be a supreme arbiter for each dispute." (Could be different arbiters for different disputes, but every dispute does have one supreme arbiter.)

does not imply

"There needs to be ONE supreme arbiter for ALL disputes." (All disputes have the same supreme arbiter.)

(If you've studied calculus, you'll recognize this logical distinction as the critical one for understanding the concept of a limit.)

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Yes, that would be the fallacy of the final arbitrator.

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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ama gi replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 7:48 PM

ama gi  -"we should all be dictators-for-life"

nir g -"people just can't vote right and need to hire professionals to make decisions on their behalf"

"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."

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its not about people voting making right or wrong decisions in who gets their vote. its that the very act of granting a monopoly of power and legitimacy to people who win votes is retarded. whereas if it was possible to 'vote' and grant people your support for their being a competitive provider of power with a particular legitimacy that you grant them over a particular class of dealings given certain conditions (or not if you dont support) then that would be great. such a system is the market system.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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filc replied on Tue, Dec 22 2009 8:17 PM

ama gi:

ama gi  -"we should all be dictators-for-life"

nir g -"people just can't vote right and need to hire professionals to make decisions on their behalf"

Ama gi - "We should all use coercion against each other"

Nir g - "We should all deal with our own matters, desires, wants, needs through a market"

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ama gi replied on Wed, Dec 23 2009 1:14 AM

nirgrahamUK:
its not about people voting making right or wrong decisions in who gets their vote. its that the very act of granting a monopoly of power and legitimacy to people who win votes is retarded.

Pardon?

When did I say that we should give power to people who win votes?

I said NOTHING OF THE SORT.  The very point of direct democracy is not putting politicians, judges, or any other professional busybodies in charge.  We should be making laws ourselves, instead of having somebody else make them for us.

You, on the other hand, want to set up a form of representative government by putting private firms in charge.  The problem with any form of representative government is that the "representatives" are capable of engaging in all kinds of corruption for as long as their actions remain undiscovered and unproven.

"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."

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in a 'direct' 'democracy'

1)what issues are voted on? and who decides that?

2)what does a vote mean? what significance does a vote have? (in other words, how does it differ from merely advertising your position on subject X by telling people about it)?

3) are private firms that deliver services 'allowed'? if so, i can have my market solution. if not, justify that.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Wed, Dec 23 2009 3:49 PM
We should be making laws ourselves
What kind of 'law' ? Don't you subscribe to natural law ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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