I am young and fairly new to Austrian economics, but am an avid supporter of it. I joined debate team at me school to support the view, and have already converted a few friends. There is one question that stumps me though. If anarchism, or anarcho-capitalism as you might want to call it, is so good, then how is Somalia such a mess. They are a completely anarchist country, and it is chaos and is an economic and social hell-hole. I was just looking for links or educated views from the Mises community on why Somalia is such a bad example of anarchy, if the free market is so much more efficient. Thank you everyone for your help.
If Cuba became anarchist for a couple years, and then it was still worse than the USA, would we say a stateless society doesn't work?
No.
The comparison is always to the country before the transition. Not other countries.
In addition, Somalia didn't come to be something of a stateless society by means of an intellectual transition, as Austrians generally advocate.
ClaytonB: Spideynw: True anarchism comes about not because no one is able to gain control of the government, but because people actively reject government. Somalia is not an example of people rejecting government. They do not have a foundation of property rights. Nonsense - Michael van Notten, one of the few real experts on Somali law, rebuts this claim here. He says, "Except for a few rules, the Somali laws recognise everybody's right to private property,
Spideynw: True anarchism comes about not because no one is able to gain control of the government, but because people actively reject government. Somalia is not an example of people rejecting government. They do not have a foundation of property rights.
True anarchism comes about not because no one is able to gain control of the government, but because people actively reject government. Somalia is not an example of people rejecting government. They do not have a foundation of property rights.
Nonsense - Michael van Notten, one of the few real experts on Somali law, rebuts this claim here. He says, "Except for a few rules, the Somali laws recognise everybody's right to private property,
Do they have to pay taxes to the local warlord? If so, they don't recognize property rights.
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
I doubt that "warlords", a.k.a petty thieves, are a problem. There was probably one incident and some useless journalist portrayed it as normal.
Does Somalia look like a great place to live? I will admit it's GDP is growing, but it's not growing THAT well compared to the rest of the world,
http://www.indexmundi.com/somalia/gdp_real_growth_rate.html
The FEE has a podcast that gives a good detailed lecture on Somalia. Simply, Somalia is an extremely poor backward group of people who seem to be up against the government of the entire Western World. What do you expect? If you look at Somalia, you will see that in some areas they are way ahead of the their African neighbor nations and in others a little behind. But unlike South Africa, etc, Somalia has been invaded several times recently and has come under attack from the international community for pirates using their shores.
I think the reason for the invasions and the pain the nations of the world dump on Somalia is that they are afraid that Somalia will become an African economic powerhouse and point out the uselessness of central government.
Governments are jealous of their power and hate freedom. Look at the USA, In the 1860s two sides fought a preview to WW1 just to keep 11 states from leaving the country.
I always respond this way to people who want the gift of government for Somalia: Give them 10 years of open trade and no political interference. If Somalia is not one of the most productive countries in Africa by that time, then I will admit I was completely wrong and you can do your worst to give them more central government. No politician in their right mind would take this bet.
If you're a statist, please explain Somalia before its state's dissolution and after...
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
with government: Poor, without government: Poor.
*Note, I'm not a statist
That isn't an explanation, and it'd be more like: before - abysmal, after - slightly improved. Relative to other African countries of a comparable nature, Somalia is better off.
To be honest, where is it THAT much worse. I can think of two places, Sudan, and Zimbabwe. Will things get better? I don't know, we'll have to see, it will be a good experiment to see if anarchism is as relevant as Marxism, or if some more industrialized countries should give it a shot.
Quinn Rogness: To be honest, where is it THAT much worse. I can think of two places, Sudan, and Zimbabwe. Will things get better? I don't know, we'll have to see, it will be a good experiment to see if anarchism is as relevant as Marxism, or if some more industrialized countries should give it a shot.
Like some said before quinn, just because no one could gain complete control, it was driven into anarchy. Even so, statistics prove that it is better than before. Give it time. The U.S. is falling apart, and has been driven further into a recession since the collapse, but we are still an economic powerhouse. While big government is making us fail, Somalia and their anarchy is helping to improve them. They are still poor, but they will go from a 3rd worl peripheral country to a powerhouse overnight, just how the U.S. didn't become poor overnight from big government. We are still a core nation but we are declining, they are still poor but they are improving. You can not just look at statistics of their GDP and say it does not work, you must compare Somalian society now to Somalian society before.
I don't think Somalia will ever be a powerhouse (No offense), but I have no idea if it will improve. If I see it work, yeah, I might have a change of thought, and I understand it will be a long process and we'll just have to wait and see what happens to Somalia.
Quinn Rogness:I don't think Somalia will ever be a powerhouse (No offense),
Logically impossible assertion
Quinn Rogness:..but I have no idea if it will improve.
It is contingent.
Quinn Rogness:If I see it work, yeah, I might have a change of thought,
It is working if facts are understood.
Quinn Rogness:...and I understand it will be a long process and we'll just have to wait and see what happens to Somalia.
It is already improving, too late.
Watch the video I linked earlier in the thread. I admit I don't know much about what is happening in Somalia but that video includes a good lecture. What sources do you have to make these assertions of yours? That would help. Unless you're living in Somalia or have visited there for an extended period of time, I doubt you're able to make these assertions without mainstream media propaganda, unfortunately.
wilderness: Here's a video that I enjoyed.
Here's a video that I enjoyed.
Very good video, thanks for the link.
Can someone please explain to me why Somalia is considered "anarchist"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia#Politics
"Following the civil war the Harti and Tanade clans declared a self-governing state in the northeast, which took the name Puntland, but maintained that it would participate in any Somali reconciliation to form a new central government. Then in 2002, Southwestern Somalia, comprising Bay, Bakool, Jubbada Dhexe (Middle Juba), Gedo, Shabeellaha Hoose (Lower Shabele) and Jubbada Hoose (Lower Juba) regions of Somalia declared itself autonomous. Although initially the instigators of this, the Rahanweyn Resistance Army, which had been established in 1995, was only in full control of Bay, Bakool and parts of Gedo and Jubbada Dhexe, they quickly established the de facto autonomy of Southwestern Somalia.
Although conflict between Hasan Muhammad Nur Shatigadud and his two deputies weakened the Rahanweyn militarily from February 2006, the Southwest became central to the TFG based in the city of Baidoa. Shatigadud became Finance Minister, his first deputy Adan Mohamed Nuur Madobe became Parliamentary Speaker and his second deputy Mohamed Ibrahim Habsade became Minister of Transport. Shatigadud also held the Chairmanship of the Rahanwein Traditional Elders' Court.
In 2004, the TFG met in Nairobi, Kenya and published a charter for the government of the nation.[84][85] The TFG capital is presently in Baidoa. Meanwhile Somalia was one of the many countries affected by the tsunami which struck the Indian Ocean coast following the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, destroying entire villages and killing an estimated 300 people. In 2006, Somalia was deluged by torrential rains and flooding that struck the entire Horn of Africa affecting 350,000 people.[86] The inter-clan rivalry continued in 2006 with the declaration of regional autonomy by the state of Jubaland, consisting of parts of Gedo, Jubbada Dhexe, and the whole of Jubbada Hoose. Barre Adan Shire Hiiraale, chairman of the Juba Valley Alliance, who comes from Galguduud in central Somalia is the most powerful leader there. Like Puntland this regional government did not want full statehood, but some sort of federal autonomy.
Conflict broke out again in early 2006 between an alliance of Mogadishu warlords known as the Alliance for the Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism (or "ARPCT") and a militia loyal to the Islamic Courts Union (or "I.C.U."), seeking to institute Sharia law in Somalia. Social law changes, such as the forbidding of chewing khat,[87] were part of moves by the ICU to change behaviours and impose strict social morals. It was widely reported that soccer playing was being banned, as well as viewing of broadcasts of soccer games,[88] but there were also reports of the ICU itself denying any such bans.[89] The Islamic Courts Union was led by Sheikh Sharif Ahmed. When asked if the ICU plans to extend its control to the rest of Somalia, Sheikh Ahmed responded in an interview: "Land is not our priority. Our priority is the people's peace, dignity and that they could live in liberty, that they could decide their own fate. That is our priority. Our priority is not land; the people are important to us."[90]
Several hundred people, mostly civilians caught in the crossfire, died during this conflict. Mogadishu residents described it as the worst fighting in more than a decade. The Islamic Courts Union accused the U.S. of funding the warlords through the Central Intelligence Agency and supplying them with arms in an effort to prevent the Islamic Courts Union from gaining power. The United States Department of State, while neither admitting nor denying this, said the U.S. had taken no action that violated the international arms embargo of Somalia. A few e-mails describing covert illegal operations by private military companies in breach of U.N. regulations have been reported[91] by the UK Sunday newspaper The Observer.
By early June 2006 the Islamic Militia had control of Mogadishu, following the Second Battle of Mogadishu, and the last A.R.P.C.T. stronghold in southern Somalia, the town of Jowhar, then fell with little resistance. The remaining A.R.P.C.T. forces fled to the east or across the border into Ethiopia and the alliance effectively collapsed.
The Ethiopian-supported Transitional Government then called for intervention by a regional East African peacekeeping force. The I.C.U. meanwhile were fiercely opposed to foreign troops—particularly Ethiopians—in Somalia.[92] claiming that Ethiopia, with its long history as an imperial power including the occupation of Ogaden, seeks to occupy Somalia, or rule it by proxy. Meanwhile the I.C.U. and their militia took control of much of the southern half of Somalia, normally through negotiation with local clan chiefs rather than by the use of force.
However, the Islamic militia stayed clear of areas close to the Ethiopian border, which had become a place of refuge for many Somalis including the Transitional Government itself, headquartered in the town of Baidoa. Ethiopia said it would protect Baidoa if threatened. On September 25, 2006, the I.C.U. moved into the southern port of Kismayo, the last remaining port held by the transitional government.[93] Ethiopian troops entered Somalia and seized the town of Buur Hakaba on October 9, and later that day the I.C.U. issued a declaration of war against Ethiopia.[94]
On 1 November 2006, peace talks between the Transitional Government and the ICU broke down. The international community feared an all-out civil war, with Ethiopian and rival Eritrean forces backing opposing sides in the power-struggle.[95] Fighting erupted once again on 21 December 2006 when the leader of ICU, Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys said: "Somalia is in a state of war, and all Somalis should take part in this struggle against Ethiopia", and heavy fighting broke out between the Islamic militia on one side and the Somali Transitional Government allied with Ethiopian forces on the other.[96]
In late December 2006, Ethiopia launched airstrikes against Islamic troops and strong points across Somalia. Ethiopian Information Minister Berhan Hailu stated that targets included the town of Buurhakaba, near the Transitional Government base in Baidoa. An Ethiopian jet fighter strafed Mogadishu International Airport (now Aden Adde International Airport), without apparently causing serious damage but prompting the airport to be shut down. Other Ethiopian jet fighters attacked a military airport west of Mogadishu.[97][98] Ethiopian Prime Minister Meles Zenawi then announced that his country was waging war against the ICU to protect his country's sovereignty. "Ethiopian defence forces were forced to enter into war to the protect the sovereignty of the nation and to blunt repeated attacks by Islamic courts terrorists and anti-Ethiopian elements they are supporting," he said.[99][100]
Days of heavy fighting followed as Ethiopian and government troops backed by tanks and jets pushed against Islamic forces between Baidoa and Mogadishu. Both sides claimed to have inflicted hundreds of casualties, but the Islamic infantry and vehicle artillery were badly beaten and forced to retreat toward Mogadishu. On 28 December 2006, the allies entered Mogadishu after Islamic fighters fled the city. Prime Minister Ali Mohammed Ghedi declared that Mogadishu had been secured, after meeting with local clan leaders to discuss the peaceful hand-over of the city.[101] Yet as of April 2008, the Transitional Federal Government and its Ethiopian allies still face frequent attacks from an Islamic insurgency.
The Islamists retreated south, towards their stronghold in Kismayo, fighting rearguard actions in several towns. They abandoned Kismayo, too, without a fight, claiming that their flight was a strategic withdrawal to avoid civilian casualties, and entrenched around the small town of Ras Kamboni, at the southernmost tip of Somalia and on the border with Kenya. In early January, the Ethiopians and the Somali government attacked, resulting in the Battle of Ras Kamboni, and capturing the Islamic positions and driving the surviving fighters into the hills and forests after several days of combat.
On January 9, 2007, the United States openly intervened in Somalia by sending Lockheed AC-130 gunships to attack ICU positions in Ras Kamboni. Dozens were killed and by then the ICU were largely defeated. During 2007 and 2008, new Islamic militant groups organized, and continued to fight against transitional government Somali and Ethiopian official troops. They recovered effective control of large portions of the country. Ethiopian forces retreated in 2009. The ICU no longer exists as an organized political group, and is now part of the Transitional Federal Government.
On December 29, 2008, Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed announced before a united parliament in Baidoa his resignation as President of Somalia. In his speech, which was broadcast on national radio, Yusuf expressed regret at failing to end the country's seventeen year conflict as his government had mandated to do.[102] He also blamed the international community for its failure to support the government, and said that the speaker of parliament, Aden "Madobe" Mohamed, would succeed him in office per the charter of the Transitional Federal Government.[103] On January 31, 2009, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed was elected as president at the Kempinski hotel in Djibouti.[104]
In 2009, the Islamic Courts Union was absorbed into the Transitional Federal Government, along with the Alliance for the Re-liberation of Somalia, a collection of moderate Islamist groups. The Islamists were awarded with 200 seats in parliament. Former Prime Minister Nur Hassan Hussein of the Transitional Federal Government and Sharif Sheikh Ahmed also signed a power sharing deal in Djibouti that was brokered by the United Nations.
According to the deal, Ethiopian troops were to withdraw from Somalia, giving their bases to the transitional government, African Union (AU) peacekeepers and moderate Islamist groups led by the ARS. Following the Ethiopian withdrawal, the transitional government expanded its parliament to include the opposition and elected Sheikh Ahmed as its new president on January 31, 2009. Sheikh Ahmed then appointed Omar Abdirashid Ali Sharmarke, the son of slain former President Abdirashid Ali Sharmarke, as the nation's new Prime Minister."
This one's always bugged me.I mean if somalia is what we believe in and statism is a failure too then we're screwed both ways and might as well give up all political thinking now.
My thoughts on why somalia is not an example of the anarchy we believe in are
1. though the somalia's have the Xeer which rejects taxation ,respect for rights and private property isn't nearly widespread enough.
2. Somalia is a tribal society and no where near industrial or slightly individualistic.As far as I know property is often held in common.
3. Somalia was poor with government and never even had the chance to develop slightly due to continually excessive tyranny.
4. The U.N. keeps trying to impose a state on them (the U.S. has been involved.See the film black hawk down)which many have said they do not want- this causes violence itself . Somalia isnt completely anarchy since they have a weak functioning central state now after about 5 years of actual anarchy.
5. No everything about Somalia is a complete failure.Telecommunications and airlines are flourishing.
so to break it down the causes of it's failure are : poverty, lack of extensive respect for property rights, pre industrial economy,minimal division of labour,and imposed weak state
you must also remember the media and the other 'court intellectuals' will distort the picture of somalia now -when it has a state- and during the real years of anarchy ,because the political elites do not want people to think anarchy is great or can work.They will just flat out deny it.
I don't really want to comment or read anything here.I have near zero in common with many of you.I may return periodically when there's something you need to know.
Near Mutualist/Libertarian Socialist.
Quinn Rogness: Does Somalia look like a great place to live? I will admit it's GDP is growing, but it's not growing THAT well compared to the rest of the world,
Let me demonstrate how you get GDP numbers in a region with with no personal finance reporting. *sticks head up ass and latches on to something*