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What does Feminism mean to you?

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djussila Posted: Sun, Oct 10 2010 11:37 PM

What does the theory of feminism mean to a libertarian? Can libertarians and feminists co-exist or is feminism wrong on every level?

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Atleast one form of feminism (feminism as not coercing females) is a direct consequence of libertarianism.

"I cannot prove, but am prepared to affirm, that if you take care of clarity in reasoning, most good causes will take care of themselves, while some bad ones are taken care of as a matter of course." -Anthony de Jasay

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Anything taken to extremes is a bad thing, but I find nothing wrong with women wanting to no longer be treated as less than men.

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

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Feminism back in the day was about civil rights. Most of the newer feminist movement is about misandry. It's really mutated into an ugly thing, and they have a lot of influence on academics.

But there are libertarian feminists, i feminists (o), or individualist feminists (all the same thing), and they are pretty cool, like Wendy McElroy or Christina Hoff Sommers (I've read a few of her books). There are a few more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individualist_feminism

Freedom has always been the only route to progress.

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Most of the newer feminist movement is about misandry.

It really has turned into a lot of misandry, not only towards men but towards girls who are... "girls", for lack of better words. Men and women are just different, and that's a hard thing to put across these days for some reason. Not that I have any opposition to different circumstances, but I think it's good when women stay home with children and men go to work. And when I say that, it's somehow turned into me sounding sexist against women, but, to me, it's because I think it's important for children to have a mother. No offense to any stay-at-home dads, but guys just can't be as nurturing as mothers. That's just my opinion. Men and women are equal, but not the same at all.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Pretty much, it's funny to be against feminity and men. What is feminism actually for then?

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I think the goal must be a unisex world, neither male nor female... like Lady Gaga.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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^You know I've disliked mainstream feminism for a long time, and have read a lot of messed stuff about them, but I have never been so disturbed by feminism till I read that comment.

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Hahaha, I'll take that as a great compliment. Thank you.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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John Ess replied on Mon, Oct 11 2010 1:19 PM

Lady Gaga seems to be feminine to me.

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MaikU replied on Mon, Oct 11 2010 1:26 PM

John Ess:

Lady Gaga seems to be feminine to me.

 

 

she's man, dude.

"Dude... Roderick Long is the most anarchisty anarchist that has ever anarchisted!" - Evilsceptic

(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)

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John Ess replied on Mon, Oct 11 2010 2:07 PM

That's a lie.

She just has weird outfits, she's no more manly (or legally a man) than any other Italian chick.

even if were true, it's not like the outfits are for anyone else but women.  Even men in drag are trying for feminity, not unisex.

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djussila replied on Mon, Oct 11 2010 3:07 PM

John Ess:

 

She just has weird outfits, she's no more manly (or legally a man) than any other Italian chick.

 

Italian chicks are manly?

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She just has weird outfits, she's no more manly (or legally a man) than any other Italian chick.

I was referring to the seemingly large male organ under her (?) weird outfits.

And that, when you type "Lady Gaga" into Google Images, it asks you if you meant "Lady Gaga Hermaphrodite".

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Giant_Joe replied on Mon, Oct 11 2010 8:57 PM

Most of the newer feminist movement is about misandry.

It really has turned into a lot of misandry, not only towards men but towards girls who are... "girls", for lack of better words. Men and women are just different, and that's a hard thing to put across these days for some reason. Not that I have any opposition to different circumstances, but I think it's good when women stay home with children and men go to work. And when I say that, it's somehow turned into me sounding sexist against women, but, to me, it's because I think it's important for children to have a mother. No offense to any stay-at-home dads, but guys just can't be as nurturing as mothers. That's just my opinion. Men and women are equal, but not the same at all.

yes

BTW, I'm also a huge sexist. I only sleep with women.

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BTW, I'm also a huge sexist. I only sleep with women.

How prejudice of you!

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Saan replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 11:26 AM

I don't know that I can answer your question in an academic manner, but what I will give is the situation as I see it.

It is very simple.  Once Co-habitating or married to a woman, you are her slave should she so choose.  Why? Because the state will back her over you everytime despite any evidence to the contrary.

Read this law. VAWA

 Criminals, there ought to be a law.

Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more.   Bon Scott.

 

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Saan replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 11:30 AM

damn

 Criminals, there ought to be a law.

Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more.   Bon Scott.

 

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Saan replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 11:42 AM

Wow the new system is stupid.  Thanks I don't feel like wasting my time learning a new way to do the same thing.  That was a dumb move.  Sorry, but I've just wasted about an hour trying to make a discussion only to get a blank screen.  Maybe in another six months. 

 

Shit, how hard is it let me write the code myself, and SEE IT.

 Criminals, there ought to be a law.

Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more.   Bon Scott.

 

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Giant_Joe replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 11:54 AM

I don't know that I can answer your question in an academic manner, but what I will give is the situation as I see it.

It is very simple.  Once Co-habitating or married to a woman, you are her slave should she so choose.  Why? Because the state will back her over you everytime despite any evidence to the contrary.

Read this law. VAWA

And people are left wondering why men aren't interested in marriage any longer. Not even 50 years ago, it wasn't uncommon in rural Europe to give dowries to men for marrying women. These days, it's the men who owe the women! :p

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Spideynw replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 12:32 PM

Feminism to me means using state force to try and make women equal to men financially.  So it does not seem compatible with libertarianism to me.

At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.

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AnonLLF replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 2:04 PM

Feminism to me means opposition to sexism against women.In this sense it's a cultural position.

Politically there's two kinds:-  (1) statist feminism which seeks to prevent sexism by means of the state and (2) anti-statist feminism.This can incorporate cultural feminism by means of non state methods .

Libertarian feminism/Individualist Feminism is a kind of anti state feminism.It incorporates cultural feminism seeking to solve sexism by non state means but also seeks to challenge and abolish aggression including laws against specifically women.I feminism also is pro-masculism and so opposes sexism against men.

Statist Feminism tends to be radical feminism which often is anti-male,anti-sex,anti-porn.Just very hateful and extremist.However there are some radical feminists who are anti state but whether radical feminism is valid is another question.I'd say no.

 

Personally I'm a feminist, a Libertarian Feminist of the Wendy Mcelroy sex positive kind.I think libertarianism implies a political anti-state feminism opposing aggression against women.Does it require cultural feminism? no but there are good reasons to be one because of the values that are part of libertarianism and that lead to it and also good reasons to think it would help lead to and maintain an anarchist society.

 

 

 

I don't really want to comment or read anything here.I have near zero in common with many of you.I may return periodically when there's something you need to know.

Near Mutualist/Libertarian Socialist.

 

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Honestly if feminism was about equality between the sexes, it wouldn't be called feminism. It was called that to bring women certain rights. Now the label is just doesn't apply in that sense. I'd like to say that it's in the anti men and only is interested in women, but that's not totally true either. They despise feminine qualities. Besides the sexes aren't equal in the sense that they are the same. But should we judge them the same, treat them the same? I'd call for at least equity. 

Men and women are equal in value if anything.

I'm pretty sure that most people agree to that the statement above, so feminism as a label identify with is really just pointless.

Freedom has always been the only route to progress.

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Marko replied on Tue, Oct 12 2010 3:45 PM

Feminism = female nationalism.

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That's explains all of it.

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I'm pretty sure that most people agree to that the statement above, so feminism as a label identify with is really just pointless.

There are meaningful ways to label people?

Some feminists simply want to rid us of institutionalized sexism.  Others want to flip the coin onto female domination. 

This is true of almost any ism.

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

~Peter Kropotkin

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I just like to bash it because mainstream feminism is just really regressive. Sure there are libertarian and individualists feminists, but the main movement as a whole is just horrid. It's very much influenced culture and attitudes. If anything feminism is institutionalized. I've talked to moderate feminists who can be chill people, but even they are mislead. It's contradictory in some ways too. I mean they say they want gender equality and yet, think about it. Women now have the option to work or to be supported. Do men have this option?

Check out Warren Farrel or Christina Hoff Summers. While I wouldn't believe everything they say, but they have interesting points and criticisms. Warren Farrel was a huge part of the feminist movement originally. Feminism can hurt both genders.

I mean feminism has really a minor rape scare.

Here's a short article by Christina Hoff Summers:

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

Also check out this video by  Walter Block:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAzkQWgIEbU

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