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Libertarianism Is Not Based on Christianity

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Nielsio Posted: Thu, Jan 19 2012 10:02 PM

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Phaedros replied on Thu, Jan 19 2012 10:49 PM

I think it has its roots in many philosophies and religions, Christianity being a major influence actually.

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Of course, some socialists would claim christianity as a major influence as well. Probably with more justification actually.

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Christianity is statist anyway. Islam is way more anarchist in its teachings than Christianity is, and you can tell by how the Muslim world for the longest time had far freer markets and was way less statist up until the Europeans took it over then the Christian world was.

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Jargon replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 12:12 AM

Islam in arabic means 'submission'

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Bert replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 12:16 AM

up until the Europeans took it over

Uhuh.  So are you going to pray 5 times a day while you're in the woods living off berries?

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Islam in arabic means 'submission'

It's a voluntary submission. I see nothing wrong with submission to authority if its voluntary. And submission to a god isnt the same as statism.

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up until the Europeans took it over

Uhuh.  So are you going to pray 5 times a day while you're in the woods living off berries?

No. I dont believe in god. I'm just saying Islam is a way better and more libertarian religion then most of whats come out of the west.

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Bert replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 1:00 AM

What religions have originated in the West?

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Protestantism for one. But Christianity in general is way less libertarian then Islam.

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Jargon replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 1:06 AM

Yeah. Voluntary if you like burning for eternity.

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Bert replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 1:39 AM

Protestantism for one.

Which is a branch of Christianity.

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Merlin replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 2:37 AM

My take is that Christianity until the Renaissance had very little to offer to a libertarian ideology, as it was just an other commie eastern religion (think Buddhism). It took pressure of the Islamic encirclement - and back than the Arabs had by far the most libertarian civilization that any part of the globe (save China, of course) had ever seen – to induce the catholic church to reform itself into what has become today the central undeniable influence on libertarianism.

The reformation helped further, as did Jews, as long as they were dispersed in smallish groups (as in the west) and not concentrated in massive territories (as in the east), since Judaism prescribes communism among members, and allows for capitalism with outsiders (thus the optimal distribution is of many small dispersed groups).

Libertarianism did come out of Christianity, but Christianity did come out of its original and biblical communism due to the influence and pressure of the other two Abrahamic religions.

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Bert replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 2:42 AM

it was just another commie eastern religion (think Buddhism)

l o l.  Buddhism is commie?

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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 It took pressure of the Islamic encirclement - and back than the Arabs had by far the most libertarian civilization that any part of the globe (save China, of course) had ever seen – to induce the catholic church to reform itself into what has become today the central undeniable influence on libertarianism.

Yes. Islam was incredibly libertarian for most of its history. The Ottoman Empire was extremely libertarian and gave minority groups self-rule and exempted them from most state taxes. It was the west and Christianity which were statist and backwards until they met Islamic influence.

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Praetyre replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 3:37 AM

Wait a minute... wait a minute... WAIT A MINUTE.

Survivalism, primitivism, decentralism and Islam... holy Shiite guys, I think F4M might be one of the Taliban.

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Marko replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 3:45 AM

At least that would have some consistency to it. But then he is also a white seperatist which contradicts the universalism of Islam. Rather than a Taliban he is just a big joke. Only one that's repetitive and annoying.

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I'm not Muslim. Im only arguing that Islamic society was much freer than christian society for most of history. I dont care what other people believe as long as they don't involve me in it.

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Marko replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 3:52 AM

You're not arguing. You don't comprehend the meaning of arguing. You just repeat the same assertions over and over again without any attempt to back them up. You're annoying.

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Chyd3nius replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 4:40 AM

Can you finally answer to my question F4M? Why did industrial revolution and huge accumulation of capital happen in Christian West if it's so socialistic and why did 'capitalistic' East remain as a poor sand dune? Remember, West didn't interve with the Arabs at that point of time.

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Lewis S. replied on Fri, Jan 20 2012 5:17 AM

These arguments about how "libertarian" Christianity is have degenerated into absurdity. First, what exactly constitutes "Christianity?" Anything a self-described Christian says or does? Whatever position the Catholic Church holds? Or how the evangelicals vote? Until or unless Christianity is defined, the discussion is meaningless. The question of Christianity's libertarianism must determine whether or not dubious "Christian" acts occurred because of Christian doctrine, or in spite of it. If one wishes to ignore the plain words of its central figure, then it would be best to define Christianity based on the tenets of its more famous theologians, such as Aquinas.

If one wants to look at historical reality, it's hard not to notice that Christians were blamed for the fall of Rome because their loyalties were not to the state, but to their individual conscience. Augustine answered these objections in City of God. Christians refused to pledge obedience to the Empire, refused to participate in the Imperial Cult, declared there to be a realm that was outside the purview of the state, and provided an institutional bulwark against the growth of state power after the fall. Perfectly libertarian? No, but relatively speaking, give me another example in history where such things occurred to the extent they did in Europe.

 

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David V replied on Sun, May 13 2012 2:29 AM

The Christian Bible advocates state-worship, the infallibility of government authorities,  and the welfare state:

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

-- Romans 13:

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Judaism, upon which Christianity is based, has at its core a monopolistic law code, supposedly backed by divine right.  How can libertarianism co-exist with such a principle?

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Freedom4Me73986:
Islam in arabic means 'submission'

It's a voluntary submission. I see nothing wrong with submission to authority if its voluntary. And submission to a god isnt the same as statism.

What`s the point with sharia law, if it`s all voluntary?

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