Well if we're getting into tastes I feel that rice and almond milk is better.
That's fine. Just don't try to stop me from drinking cow's milk - raw or otherwise.
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Voluntaryism Forum
"You don't drink your wife's, so why drink it from another animal?"
use some better logic.
limitgov: use some better logic.
It's actually a pretty good analogy. The only good response is Autolykos's, which is because it tastes good. But the analogy is good.
"It's actually a pretty good analogy. The only good response is Autolykos's, which is because it tastes good. But the analogy is good."
you must be Bert's second account
Rofl.
I am using logic. Every other animal does not drink milk from it's mother past infancy. Humans, on the other hand, will go out of their way to drink another animals milk past infancy, but it's taboo to continue to drink their mother's milk. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd? Autolykos is more direct, he drinks it for taste, which is really the only reason for someone to drink milk.
It's also nutritious.
Every other animal does not drink milk from it's mother past infancy. Humans, on the other hand, will go out of their way to drink another animals milk past infancy, but it's taboo to continue to drink their mother's milk. Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?
No, there are a lot of things people can do that other animals can't. Animals also aren't normally in the habit of speaking languages, or trading, or having civilisation generally.
It's not like the average mammal is above drinking the milk of another, surely? The opportunity just doesn't arise very often unless you're in the habit of farming dairy cows.
There are plenty of instances of inter-species nursing among mammals.
gamma_rat, your argument is that other animals don't have the oppurtunity to drink the milk of other animals...why would they want to?
Autolykos, is it prevalent enough in nature (to where a certain animal population makes it custom) to take note of? Besides those rare Animal Planet type scenarios I never hear of an animals purposely (going out there way to) drinking the milk of another species.
"Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?"
No it doesn't. I think the others have already pointed out the flaws in your "logic". My wife doesn't want to continue breast feeding forever because its extremely inconvient for her to do so. But somehow, that is a reason for me to stop drinking animal's milk?
There's no well thought out logic here.
No it doesn't. I think the others have already pointed out the flaws in your "logic". My wife doesn't want to continue breast feeding forever because its extremely inconvient for her to do so. But somehow, that is a reason for me to stop drinking animal's milk? There's no well thought out logic here.
1. What "flaws" were pointed out in my "logic"? It was not answered if it's custom for other animals to drink another species milk in a natural setting, and far as I understand we are the only species who made it custom for this practice. 2. This is not merely logic, it's fact. Dairy cows don't just produce milk, they are constantly bred through artificial insemination and pumped with hormones. I'm sure that cow does not want to constantly be raped and pumped with drugs so it's constantly lactating, seems extremely inconvenient for your tastes.
Let's inseminate your wife and hook her breasts up to pumps so we can enjoy her milk for ourselves. Also, it's not as healthy as you think it is, raw or otherwise.
Bert, if you want to go into what occurs in other species in the "natural" setting, I wouldn't go talking about how we "rape" cows during dairy farming, as forceful breeding is pretty much the standard procedure for most species in the wild. That aside, the argument that because other animals don't drink milk past birth, that we shouldn't either, doesn't make a lick of sense. "Does" doesnt't equal "ought". Have you really never seen a cat or dog lap up a bowl of milk? Or eat cheese? Certainly this isn't a natural setting, but the main reason for that is that cheese and bowls of milk don't magically "occur" in a natural setting. They're products. It's like saying "have you ever seen a gorilla eat hummus in the wild?" and therefore concluding that we shouldnt' eat hummus. The bottom line is that milk is an emulsion of fats, proteins, vitamins, and other substances, and as such is a desirable food for most animals, even if it is unnatural or unusual for them to eat it. You can make the argument that milk and dairy are ultimately unhealthy to eat, which wouldn't be an unreasonable position to hold. But you can't reasonably make that argument from the behavior of other animals, you'd have to do so because of the effects on human physiology.
"Let's inseminate your wife"
actually, interesting fact...women who are not pregnant can still nurse. in some countries they're referred to as "wet nurses". So, you wouldn't have to rape anyone. But yeah...you're logic is starting to get more and more twisted. I'll let logistic take it from here. I don't see any point in trying to argue with your wierd, not so well thought out positions. but hey...you're still a lover of freedom...or you wouldn't be here on this board. so no hard feelings.
@ LogisticEarth: In what case is breeding "forceful breeding" in other species? Are we talking about animals in mating season or rape? It seems that cows in this situation have no other choice, and it's not for their benefit of their own species, but ours. Thus this forceful breeding serves no purpose for the cows and it's not of their own accord.
No, I'm making the argument of whether or not it's natural for us to drink milk past infancy, and we wean ourselves from our mother's milk to another animal's milk when there's no real benefit to this (I really don't feel like arguing why milk has no nutritional benefit compared to anything else, but the evidence exists), and that it only falls down to taste, habit, and tradition as to why people do drink milk. If we look at behavior it still strikes me as unusual that we got out our way to drink another species milk when it's not necessary.
@ limitgov: Can you actually form a well thought out response and argument on your own or just let other people do the work for you? So far all I've got from you is that my response is illogical.
I think you're assigning a lot of agency to animals that doesn't really exist, or at least can't be proven or communicated to us. Rape implies the ability to comprehend the concepts of rights, consent, and choice. Casually stating that dairy farming is predicated on "raping" cattle via artificial and natural insemination assumes a whole lot about the nature of animals. Whether or not animals have any sort of moral agency, that can be represented by things like intent and choice, certainly isn't a settled topic. As for natural mating, it's hardly consentual, it's not like the bull walks up to the cow and says "Excuse me madam, would you fancy a screw?"
Is drinking milk past infancy "natural"? Quick answer: No, but so what? "Natural" is a wishy-washy concept that doesn't tell us what is good or bad. As to why we "go out of our way" to eat dary, the answer is simple: For most of human history food was scarce, and dairy is a relatively efficient way to turn non-edible plantlife (e.g. prarie/steppe grass) into edible calories. Moreover, dairy can be a source of calorie-dense food that can be stored over time and variable conditions in the form of cheese, butter, and other products. It makes total sense in the grand scheme of human agriculture. Now, you can say that in developed countries today, those properties are anachronistic, and I wouldn't immediately disagree with that. But we also have a long, cultural history of eating dairy, and it is integral to many cuisines. Viewed in context, it's hardly unusual. At least no more unusual or unnatural than "unecessarily" eating fresh strawberries in October when "naturally" it's apple season. Again, the argument that milk/dairy isn't nutritious and has negative health impacts is a legitimate topic, but arguments that it is "unnatural" or "weird" are appeals to emotion, not logic.
Because it tastes amazing.
Dude, you're not just talking about something to dilute coffee and tea, this is cheese and ice cream that's at stake here... The very hallmarks of the civilised world. If a civilisation doesn't have cheese and ice cream, then they need to go back to the drawing board, they've done it wrong... They've missed the point entirely.
Do you want to do a test to see how many animals at the zoo will eat cheese and ice cream? (It won't be good for the animals.)
gamma_rat it may surprise you a good portion of the world is lactose intolerant and places like India the consumption of dairy is drastically cut compared to the fat and unhealthy Western world.
"it may surprise you a good portion of the world is lactose intolerant"
It may suprise you, Bert, that the enzymes to help digest lactose are destroyed in the pasteurization process.
Did I say anything about pasteurization?
"Did I say anything about pasteurization?"
You're so defensive. Relax.
You're so defensive.
Uh, well, why wouldn't I defend my position?
I view pasteurizing milk as an act of aggression as well. It goes against the law of life I've talked about.