Can anyone show when the two first got associated? I don't think in the 40's anyone would have accused the Old Right as Fascist. In the 30's weren't many of the hip left in the Fascist camp? Was there some intellectual/ world war of two leftist ideologies at the time, and fascism lost so it got dumped the term right wing? If people consider the Nazis Fascist, isn't it self apparent in the name of national socialism, that it probably can't be "extremly right wing"? And can't it be pretty easily shown that Keynes (our left wing hero of the moment) was indeed an admirer of Fascism?
Is there any way to trace the evolution of fasism going from the left to right? For that matter how did the love of authority get to exclusivly mean right wing?
Because communism is extreme left-wing, and fascists were supposedly so anti-communist. Thus, extreme right-wing.
Because they were. Rothbard explained in this journal article:
http://mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/1_1/1_1_2.pdf
Because in a system where you only need a 50% majority to wield power there are only two factions, the left and the right, and the Nazis' biggest opposition was on the left, so that made them right-wing.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
I've always thought that Erik von Kuehnelt-Leddihn had an interesting view of this. He characterises fascism as fundamentally leftist because of its identitarian and collectivist nature.
Then again, "right" and "left" aren't easily defined.
Well, because they lost the world war, and the winner gets to make the definitions.
It's not fascism when the government does it.
“We must spend now as an investment for the future.” - President Obama
Morty: Because communism is extreme left-wing, and fascists were supposedly so anti-communist. Thus, extreme right-wing. This is not true...you need to go back and study history.
Morty: Because communism is extreme left-wing, and fascists were supposedly so anti-communist. Thus, extreme right-wing.
In the 1930's Germany had two major factions fighting for political power, the National Socialist Workers Party (Nazi Party) and the Communists. Hitler and his followers sympathized with much of the communists theories but was afraid of Russia. The Nazi's were more worried about Russia than communism. In fact, the National Socialist Workers Party was against capitalism but Hitler knew that he needed businessmen to help push his agenda.
The National Socialist Workers Party has much more in common with today’s National Democrat Party in the US in that both strongly supported socialism over capitalism and a strong centrally controlled government. Associating Nazi's and fascism to the Republican Party is an incorrect correlation. The Nazi's were really, extreme leftwing and calling them rightwing is nothing short of history revision.
one must understand that by 1930 altar and throne right-wingers were a dodo. the nazis simple cashed in on the mass popularity of state-socialism. to be a populist one must follow trends
ZombieStomper: Morty: Because communism is extreme left-wing, and fascists were supposedly so anti-communist. Thus, extreme right-wing. This is not true...you need to go back and study history.
I think it is safe to say he has.
ZombieStomper: In the 1930's Germany had two major factions fighting for political power, the National Socialist Workers Party (Nazi Party) and the Communists. Hitler and his followers sympathized with much of the communists theories but was afraid of Russia. The Nazi's were more worried about Russia than communism. In fact, the National Socialist Workers Party was against capitalism but Hitler knew that he needed businessmen to help push his agenda.
Agreed. But how does this rebut the quotation? If anything it seems to corroborate it.
DBratton: ZombieStomper: Morty: Because communism is extreme left-wing, and fascists were supposedly so anti-communist. Thus, extreme right-wing. This is not true...you need to go back and study history. I think it is safe to say he has. ZombieStomper: In the 1930's Germany had two major factions fighting for political power, the National Socialist Workers Party (Nazi Party) and the Communists. Hitler and his followers sympathized with much of the communists theories but was afraid of Russia. The Nazi's were more worried about Russia than communism. In fact, the National Socialist Workers Party was against capitalism but Hitler knew that he needed businessmen to help push his agenda. Agreed. But how does this rebut the quotation? If anything it seems to corroborate it.
The problem I have with the original quote is that it is very general...it is just like saying that because Republicans and Democrats oppose each other we must assume that one is extreme left and the other is extreme right.
My comment does not corroborate...in the 1930's Germany, the fight was more about who had power over ideology because the two factions were similar politically. They both (Communist and National Socialists) were using the same tactics to gain power...mostly intimidation, violence and murder. Eitherway, Germany was screwed with either party because both systems had the ruling class of people who would run the country. Once in power, neither would be removed democratically. The German people were backed into a hole financially and were given by power hungry mad-men two choices...Monster 1 or Monster 2...Capitalism is the only free system, anything else is just another prison/concentration camp.
ZombieStomper:The problem I have with the original quote is that it is very general...it is just like saying that because Republicans and Democrats oppose each other we must assume that one is extreme left and the other is extreme right.
But this is it. That is how these things are defined.
It's a false paradigm whose purpose is to keep those unaware, within it.
Left wing = communists/marxists = international socialists
Right wing = fascists/nazis = national socialists
The only options are socialism.
Some may find this interesting / enlightening.
Best thing to do is continually reject the paradigm, don't associate yourself as right wing (simply because we look at economics more, and think that's what must represent us). You will automatically be associated with the neo-cons and war mongers. Whats the point in doing that?
Forwards towards Liberty, or backwards towards Tyranny.
Fascism is completely left wing; it involves the government controlling (though not outright owning) industries. The reason the Nazis were afraid of the communists is because their [Nazis] party was based upon scapegoating the Jews while communists wanted to unite people based upon class and not race. It would have undermined a key facet of Hitler's propaganda. However, both communists and Nazis are left wing - that is, if we are using the contemporary United States left/right paradigm. In The Road to Serfdom Hayek discusses this in significant detail. He says that many students returned from the Continent unsure of if they had encountered Nazis or communists but only certain they hated Western liberal civilization. Hayek also notes that communists and socialists were often recruited by the Nazis because there was a great deal of overlap in their ideologies.
The real question is - Is the United States fascist or socialist? Where do we draw the line in the sand?
In liberty,
Chris
Interesting essay on this available here:
http://ray-dox.blogspot.com/2006/06/this-is-expanded-version-of-article.html
The reality is much, much more simple than that.
When Benito Mussolini was elected for the first time at the Italian parliament (in the Socialist Party... as you all well know), to mark his intention of breaking all schemes and to give himself some attention from the newspapers, he deliberately chose to occupy the rightmost seat available, which had been unoccupied in years by image-conscious Conservatives. Then, since he was a brilliant orator and a flamboyant personality, other MPs following his example flocked to the surrounding seats... and that's how the extreme right was born.
I suspect Kakugo is right simply because it is the dumbest possible reason. And liberals flock to dumb reasons like statists on a welfare check.
nazgulnarsil: I suspect Kakugo is right simply because it is the dumbest possible reason. And liberals flock to dumb reasons like statists on a welfare check.
I hope that is the reason, as it would be pretty funny
ZombieStomper:This is not true...you need to go back and study history.
You should be a little more careful with your words, you might just say something like what you did above to someone who knows a little about history. Well, too late for that, actually.
Who were the biggest political enemies of Mussolini (the leader of the first fascist movement)? Against who did he most vigorously campaign, and what did he paint all his opponents as? Communists.
Let's try even the National Socialists (though Mussolini did not find their imitations particularly good, and many scholars oppose their classification as "fascists"). Who were their greatest enemies? What political ideology did Hitler associate most with Jews? Who did Hitler warn was trying to take over the country? Communists.
I never said fascism should be considered right-wing, so your musings to the contrary are irrelevant. Where fascism actually fits on the political spectrum is totally inconsequential to the question of why people think it is on the extreme right.
Morty: ZombieStomper:This is not true...you need to go back and study history. You should be a little more careful with your words, you might just say something like what you did above to someone who knows a little about history. Well, too late for that, actually. Who were the biggest political enemies of Mussolini (the leader of the first fascist movement)? Against who did he most vigorously campaign, and what did he paint all his opponents as? Communists. Let's try even the National Socialists (though Mussolini did not find their imitations particularly good, and many scholars oppose their classification as "fascists"). Who were their greatest enemies? What political ideology did Hitler associate most with Jews? Who did Hitler warn was trying to take over the country? Communists. I never said fascism should be considered right-wing, so your musings to the contrary are irrelevant. Where fascism actually fits on the political spectrum is totally inconsequential to the question of why people think it is on the extreme right.
Your logic is twisted. If we could have found a Capitalist party in Germany...Hitler would have opposed them too and painted them as the enemy. Fact is, Hitler DID oppose capitalism but they were not a political party, they were Jews. The only thing "right wing" about the National Socialist Workers Party is that they were only slightly right of the communist party which Hitler had no control (Hitler was sympathetic to communist ideology) but for Hitler it was all about power. Furthermore, associating Jews with communists was a red herring, they were capitalists, small business owners etc.
You were the one with a one liner that was apparently nothing more than an attempt to again paint anyone who is republican as right wing and therefore associated witht he Nazi Party when in FACT the current Democrat party has much more in common with the National Socialist Workers Party fascists than any single or group of republicans.
Here in the US the Democrat Socialist Workers Party has replaced JEW with AIG, and look what we have, an angry mob threatening to KILL AIG execs. See, hang around long enough and history will repeat itself.
Can anyone show any articles written in the 30's associating fascism with being on the right, capitalism, or being some off shoot of old school liberalism?
Can any one show me American/British thinkers who were sympathetic towards fascist ideals in the 30's, who were they and how many of them were more in the Progressive/ socialist camp before?
Look up Oswald Mosley.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
A simplified, & partially tounge-in-cheek response to the OP on how Fascism got to mean "extrmeley right wing"1. Propaganda2. Counter-propaganda3. Political Alignments4. Counter-Political Alignments5. Reactionary Political Action 6. Redefinition of terms & their use7. Revision of Propaganda8. Repeat.
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Juan:Fascism is right wing. It's a conservative and tribalist ideology.
Funny though, the biggest group of resistors against Hitler were conservative German nationalists.
ZombieStomper:Your logic is twisted.
And instead of pointing out where you thought this was the case, you went right ahead and talked about a topic which is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand.
I'll say this once more for your benefit: whether or not fascism is right wing has absolutely nothing, zero, nada, nil, not a single thing to do with the question of why it is seen as right wing. Thanks for playing.
Hmm . . .You guys are confusing Hitler's interpretation of Government (National Socialism) with Mussolini's interpretation (Republican Fascism). They are similar, but worlds apart. Just as Leninism and Stalinism are similar, but different. I've always interpreted Mussolini's Fascism as Centralized Corporatism (Centralized Capitalism?) and Hitler's government as National Socialism (duh!). Am I in the right forums? This should be self-explanatory, unless I'm wrong (I hope).I can't believe I'm reading this! I expected more from you guys. Hi guys, this is my first post
Curius Dentatus:I can't believe I'm reading this! I expected more from you guys.
I expected more from your first post. Life is full of disappointments.
Welcome to Mises.org!
Sorry bud, I don't see the necessity of lavish words. I'm a minimalist by trait and practice what I preach, unlike Orwell . Yes, I love simplistic writing and hate dancing around words, unless it's unavoidable. I wonder if there's a word that's not as derogative as "simpleton" because "minimalist" is not cutting "it".P.S.I'm just ranting, since your the first person to respond to my post.
sicsempertyrannis:Funny though, the biggest group of resistors against Hitler were conservative German nationalists.
Found an old article of DiLorenzo titled "Economic Fascism." Hope this would [help] you guys out.http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1994archive/121_3/ts213l.html
Some people think I'm right-wing/fascist/Republican/whatever because I oppose Obama's policies. It's a huge problem for me because once I start talking people about how bad Obama's policies are, they automatically think I'm a right-wing/fascist/Republican/whatever. But I thank governement education for teaching them that logic.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
It does seem that right wing is a hodge podge catch all phrase for evil, or stuff that you aren't supposed to like. It very well may be, when defined by certain parameters. I really anymore have a hard time defining the two wings when it comes to the more mainstream views. They seem to have roughly the same "ideology" they just buy off different special interests and the right just happens to be worse at propaganda.
nameless: Then again, "right" and "left" aren't easily defined.
Sure they are. Liberty is on one side, slavery on the other. Which side is which makes absolutely no difference. Fascism and socialism are on the same side, no matter which side it happens to be.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
Juan: sicsempertyrannis:Funny though, the biggest group of resistors against Hitler were conservative German nationalists. Ah yes. Nazis and commies were mortal enemies too. I guess that means commies are nice fellows.
Hitler was a big fan of Stalin in private.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
sicsempertyrannis: Juan:Fascism is right wing. It's a conservative and tribalist ideology. Funny though, the biggest group of resistors against Hitler were conservative German nationalists.
Of course, Hitler had a variety of other traits indicative of conservatism: he was an environmentalist and egalitarian, not to mention that he despised the Catholic church.
The differences between communism and fascism are practically indistinguishable. They're both despotic in their nature. The entire left/right model is flawed.
There really are only three basic forms of government:
GilesStratton:Of course, Hitler had a variety of other traits indicative of conservatism: he was an environmentalist and egalitarian, not to mention that he despised the Catholic church.
Montcliff: There really are only three basic forms of government: Oligarchy/Monarchy - one central ruler or group deciding everything for everyone else (monarchy, oligarchy, communism, fascism, democracy) Republic Anarchy
Or to put it another way: