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How Many People Were Killed by Communism and Nazism/Fascism?

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Brian LaSorsa Posted: Sun, Jun 27 2010 5:54 PM

According to the many sources I've read on how many people were killed under Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Hirohito, and Mussolini, these are the statistics I have:

Mao: 80,000,000

Stalin: 60,000,000

Hitler: 15,000,000

Hirohito and Mussolini: Not even sure.

Does anyone have even evidence of these numbers? I'm curious as to why we were on Stalin's side of WWII when he seemed to kill the most people?

Also, if someone wouldn't mind taking me to school for a second - what was the relationship like between Mao Zedong, Chiang Kai-shek, the United States, and the Soviet Union around WWII and after? I'm sorry if this is a dumb question, but I've been fed too much b-s during everything that I'm highly confused. I understand some things, but overall I don't know what exactly to believe.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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Brian Anderson:
I understand some things, but overall I don't know what exactly to believe.

Don't believe anything.  Do research.

http://mises.org/media.aspx?action=category&ID=167

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Marko replied on Sun, Jun 27 2010 6:54 PM

 

Stalin: 60,000,000

And how would this be broken down into?

Hitler: 15,000,000

Nonsense, Hitler's count is over 25 million people. 6 million Jews. 14.2 million Soviet civilians (excluding Soviet Jews, already counted in the previous figure), 3.3 Soviet POW deaths, 2 million Poles, etc.

I'm curious as to why we were on Stalin's side of WWII when he seemed to kill the most people?

You weren't. You were on your own side.

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Bert replied on Sun, Jun 27 2010 7:39 PM

Hitler's numbers vary, especially the Jewish number.  The 6 million has been sticking around for a long time, but there was a point where I think some people were claiming as high as 20 million.  I highly doubt 6 million Jews were killed within Germany given that the Jewish population was allowed leave Germany before the war, as many did.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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Sieben replied on Sun, Jun 27 2010 7:51 PM

^I read that if you take all the jewish bodies they dug up, its only in the hundreds of thousands. The claim is that the nazis burned the corpses of millions of jews, but bodies don't burn. They need to have heat added to them. If you take all the trees cleared during the war, it is nowhere near enough to burn 6 million corpses.

I don't know if I should take this analysis seriously, because most of the holocaust denial stuff is politically motivated. The methodology seems good though. Be dumb of the allies just believed the nazi records of how many jews died, just like they believed the russian economic figures :)

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Yeah, I mean, I've done a lot of research but I always get contradictory information from different sources. I understand how Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong were in a type of Civil War confrontation, but did we support one of those two leaders more than the other?

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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William replied on Sun, Jun 27 2010 8:07 PM

Assuming those numbers are even somewhat accurate:

 

I find it amusing and bemusing how the one who killed the least is far more socially stigmatized than that archprick commie who killed the most.  NYC just lit the Empire State Building in Chinese colours in that jerk's honor. 

"I am not an ego along with other egos, but the sole ego: I am unique. Hence my wants too are unique, and my deeds; in short, everything about me is unique" Max Stirner
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Bert replied on Sun, Jun 27 2010 8:11 PM

Despite the political motivation behind Did Six Million Really Die? it was pretty in depth with whether or not six million Jews really did die at the hands of Nazi Germany.  Six million is a large number, it would be hard to believe that six million died from either concentration camps or other reasons like starvation, and when the Jewish population was allowed to leave during Nazi Germany.

To go further it's questionable whether or not the so called gas chambers used were really gas chambers or large cremation chambers.  Also, the remaining Jews were put into labour camps, wouldn't it be counter productive to kill off what's pretty much your slave work force?  I also read that there was no mention of the holocaust (as in Jewish genocide and gas chambers) until after the war was over.  How could have 6 million Jewish deaths go unnoticed by everyone else even before war broke out?

I don't consider myself a holocaust denier, but a lot of this is very questionable.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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NYC just lit the empire state building in China in that jerks honor.

I hadn't even heard about that until you just told me. That's ridiculous. And I'm especially confused as to how I didn't hear of that happening last year? Who knows. But that's a disgrace.

How could have 6 million Jewish deaths go unnoticed by everyone else even before war broke out?

Did America not know about the concentration camps before WWII began?

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Bert replied on Sun, Jun 27 2010 8:31 PM

Did America not know about the concentration camps before WWII began?

From what I've read, no.  I don't know if this is fact.

I had always been impressed by the fact that there are a surprising number of individuals who never use their minds if they can avoid it, and an equal number who do use their minds, but in an amazingly stupid way. - Carl Jung, Man and His Symbols
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That's very interested. I hadn't heard. I'll have to research some more information on it. I've heard a lot lately about FDR "lieing" us into WWII. I still have to look more into that because I'm confused by the whole scenario.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H.L. Mencken.

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I don't know much about Rudolph J. Rummel, but his website is on target with the OP.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills

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Turin replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 12:07 PM

"Nonsense, Hitler's count is over 25 million people. 6 million Jews. 14.2 million Soviet civilians (excluding Soviet Jews, already counted in the previous figure), 3.3 Soviet POW deaths, 2 million Poles, etc."

Figuring how many died under Hitler is not an easy task. First of all a number as astronomical as 25 million is cleary fabricated. Are we to believe that at most in four years Hitler killed half as many as Stalin did in 30? The soviet regime under stalin had already killed around 15-20 million people when Hitler took power. Are we to believe a political machine short on man power in three years did killed half as many people as Stalin did with 30 years and a massive secret police the size of a paramilitary army?

 

Firstly in the Gulag Archipelago Solzhenitsyn debunks the claim that the Germans killed the Russian POWs for racial reasons. They were merely (no justification intended) left die as the Soviets did toward German POWs. It was merely reciprical. This is deliniated on pg 219 of Volume 1 of the Gulag Archipelago.

Second 14.5 millian Russian civilians dead at the hands of Hitler is a perposterous figure. One Many of these dead are probably taken from Stalin and given to hitler. After all scorched earth policy was initiated by Stalin at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa. Also the Encyclopedia Britannica states: "Civilian deaths from land battles, aerial bombardment, political and racial executions, war-induced disease and famine, and the sinking of ships probably exceeded battle casualties. These civilian deaths are even more difficult to determine, yet they must be counted in any comparative evaluation of national losses. There are no reliable figures for the casualties of the Soviet Union and China, the two countries in which casualties were undoubtedly greatest. Mainly for this reason, estimates of total dead in World War II vary anywhere from 35,000,000 to 60,000,000—a statistical difference of no small import. Few have ventured even to try to calculate the total number of persons who were wounded or permanently disabled." http://original.britannica.com/eb/article-53608/World-War-II

Also the polish figure is somewhat suspect as well.  While it is believed around 5 million polish civilians died in WW2 about 2 million were deported to Siberia when the Soviets annexed eastern Poland where a million died and many more died in the rape of eastern Europe instigated by victorious red army so how many were killed by Hitler and by Stalin? It's hard to tell, but most figures ignore Stalin and claim Hitler killed all of them.

Data arising from Nazi victims in Russia is also dubious since the Soviets were notorious liars. One such work is The Black Book writen by Ilya Ehrenburg chief of Soviet Propaganda. This work is a vital primary source in Holocaust studies, yet it was written by the cheif of Propaganda of a Totalitarian regime that killed more than Hitler?

In the final analysis the Communists killed far and away more than the Fascits. Rummel estimates that around 150,000,000 people were killed by the communists all over the world. Seen here in Rummel's Red Plauge: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1395350/posts. This old and the 35 million killed in Mao's great leap forward are not counted, but later one he decides to count them go to his website. 

Rummel gives Hitler 20 million, but 12-15 million seems to be standard. GIven avaliable data I favor 10 million. Too many russians seem to be fabricated to give the larger figures credibility. Even with Rummel's figures Hitelr 20 mil, Japan 6 mil and various smalelr groups something like 30 million would be reached far small than his estimates for communism, but I think rummel over estimates some of the fascists killings for reasons listed above.

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Marko replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 12:16 PM

I don't know much about Rudolph J. Rummel, but his website is on target with the OP.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills

Then you don't know he is a neocon.

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Marko replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 12:30 PM

First of all a number as astronomical as 25 million is cleary fabricated.

Since it is clearly fabricated you will have no problem refuting it. I'm waiting.

Why don't you break down the 10 million you attribute to Hitler for starters.

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Turin replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 1:07 PM

Firstly the way you framed your response seems to indicate that you are not interested in an answer as is also attested to by your sparse elaboration of the evidence for your 25 million figure and given that my response spent time elaborating in some detail my doubts.

"Why don't you break down the 10 million you attribute to Hitler for starters."

First an interogative sentance should end with a question mark not a period.

Break down the 10 million OK. 5-6 million jews, 1.5 roma and disabled germans, 1-2 million poles and the russian figures are almost impossible to accuratly forcast, I cannot do it nor can anybody. For the sake of debate I say 2-3 million. Now at the low end that is around 11 mil and at the high end around 14 mil. Yet you just make up numbers for dead russians if we got rid of your 14 million then we would already be at around 12 million. So 10 million is an average maybe 12 or 13, but you have to show me how many russians really died and stop blaming all the dead Russians and Poles on Hitler, Stalin killed alot as well.

Also the claim of fabrication was not directed to you, but to your sources. Remember for most of the cold war it was stated that 10 million jews died and 3 million people of all races died at Auschwitz. Modern estimates almost halved the 10 million to 5 or 6 million and Auschwitz to around 1.3 million. So there has been much exageration. Secondly you provided no sources for your figures, granted the six million needs little citation, but your Russian figure is totaly unsubstantiated unless soviet propaganda is consulted, after all Brezhnev  claimed almost 20 million civilians died in operation Barbarossa a figure to fantastic to be credible, and most western sources ignor it as well. While there are some western historians who give credece to Brezhnev they are I belive a minority.  In fact the russian figures are the one I contest the most. The Encyclopedia Britannica claims that 7 million russian civilians died in WW II not 14 million and of that 7 million Stalin bears a heavy burden. In fact the soviet death toll continues to rise Stalin estimated all deaths at 7 mil, Khrushchev 27 mil and Brezhnev 35+ mil. I ask when will it stop?

Again such figures are difficult to pin down, 10 million was guestimate based on scepticism of repeated exagerations of Soviet and Allied estimates.

So in short I want you to provide me with non-soviet numbers for dead Civilains in Russia, which would include Western historians who use soviet data.

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Marko replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 1:43 PM

Firstly the way you framed your response seems to indicate that you are not interested in an answer as is also attested to by your sparse elaboration of the evidence for your 25 million figure and given that my response spent time elaborating in some detail my doubts.

Just because you spent a lot of time writting your post it does not mean it warrants an equally labour-intensive response.

For the sake of debate I say 2-3 million.

So how is this further broken down into? Between the POWs, starvation, forced labourers, anti-partisan terror, genocide? And while at it, how many of the 2-3 million would be Belarusian?

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Turin replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 3:25 PM

While not 10 million, Walter Block, in Socialism and Fascism: A Political-Economic Spectrum Analysi claims 11 million were Killed by the Nazis. In time frame 3:10-3:30 min. http://mises.org/media/1554.

"Just because you spent a lot of time writting your post it does not mean it warrants an equally labour-intensive response."

I am not asking for verbosity, but for sources and evidence. I have provided sources with Solzhenitsyn, Britannica, Rummel and now Block. You have provided none. The burden of proof lies on you, you have not even tired. 

"So how is this further broken down into? Between the POWs, starvation, forced labourers, anti-partisan terror, genocide? And while at it, how many of the 2-3 million would be Belarusian?"

Since you did not provide such a minute break down in your own estimates I find no reason to do so for my own.

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Sieben replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 4:04 PM

I don't know how many died. I still need more research. The arguments on both sides are very very bad. The methodology is childish and naive at best. Political motivations dominate. From the wiki article:

The ICC

In the 1978 official bulletin, the agency stated that its mission was to "help victims not count them",[47] and questioned how they would have even been able to obtain such statistics had they wanted to, given that they were "only able to enter only a few concentration camps...in the final days of the war".[47] The agency states that the figures used are "the number of deaths recorded by the International Tracing Service on the basis of documents found when the camps were closed",[47]

Nazis destroyed much documentation, and that many deaths occurred in camps where prisoners were generally not registered
On its face, this logic seems backwards. If there is pressure to exterminate jews, you would not under-report your figures by failing to register prisoners. In fact, you might exaggerate your numbers. If you do, what evidence can there be to the contrary?

The World Almanac volumes from 1945 to 1949[53][54][55][56] present two sets of figures for the world Jewish population, one attributed to the American Jewish Committee (AJC) and the other under the Almanac's own responsibility. The set from the AJC makes clear they use figures from 1938, "the last available data". Until 1949, the two sets of figures were very similar. But in 1949, the World Almanac gives the world Jewish population as 15,713,638,[57] while the AJC number in the same volume (but for 1947) was 11,266,600.[58] Moreover, the AJC revised its estimate of the world Jewish population in 1939 upward, to 16,643,120. Thus, according to the AJC in the 1949 World Almanac, the difference between the pre and post war populations is over 5.4 million. Subsequent years of the Almanac discontinued all reporting of populations for all religions worldwide, while continuing to carry the AJC's numbers regarding the world Jewish population.
So there are two sets of numbers... according to the Jewish PAC, the holocaust was really bad, and according to the world almanac, it wasn't. Hmmmmmmm

There are also other considerations, like, how were people counted? It is harder to count refugees than registered citizens :) Like I said, terrible methodology and political bias.

The 1932 American Jewish Yearbook estimate the total number of Jews in the world at 15,192,218, of whom 9,418,248 resided in Europe. However, the 1947 yearbook states: "Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time.
I don't consider myself a zionist conspiracy theorist, but this is too much.

These numbers are also consistent with the findings of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, Appendix III, in 1946.
Sounds legit, but its a government organization for the interests of jews. Moreover, how they arrived at their conclusion is never spelled out.

I think we can all agree, we don't really care who says what as long as their methods are sound and open, but the tactics employed by anti-holocaust-deniers seem to be "look how many official sounding organizations disagree with you!". Its not very convincing. I'm not too sure what to believe :/

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Marko replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 5:29 PM

Since you did not provide such a minute break down in your own estimates I find no reason to do so for my own.

You didn't ask me to. I am all too happy to do it:

7.4 million killed outright (of which up to 2.5 million Jewish holocaust deaths)
2.2 million died as slave labourers in Germany
3.3 million Soviet POWs starved to death in German camps
4.1 million died of hunger and disease in German occupied Soviet territories
3 million died of hunger, etc in unoccupied Soviet Union as the result of the war

Now please reciprocate.

I have provided sources with Solzhenitsyn, Britannica, Rummel and now Block.

Britannica and Block are not specialists. Rummel is a warmongering cook who laughably claims Tito killed over one million people. Solzhenitsin never uttered that the Germans killed only between 2-3 million Soviet civilians and would have been appalled by what you are saying. 

I am not asking for verbosity, but for sources and evidence. The burden of proof lies on you, you have not even tired.

That is rich. You discount non-Western sources in advance and then have the guile to complain about a lack of evidence. I don't know of much Western scholarship on the matter, has there even been a serious effort to tackle this issue in the West?

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Bert replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 8:59 PM

Not saying this is a credible source, but this is from Did Six Million Really Die?

This is taken from 3. Population And Emigration

Statistics relating to Jewish populations are not everywhere known in precise detail, approximations for various countries differing widely, and it is also unknown exactly how many Jews were deported and interned at any one time between the years 1939–1945. In general, however, what reliable statistics there are, especially those relating to emigration, are sufficient to show that not a fraction of six million Jews could have been exterminated. In the first place, this claim cannot remotely be upheld on examination of the European Jewish population figures. According to Chambers Encyclopaedia the total number of Jews living in pre-war Europe was 6,500,000. Quite clearly, this would mean that almost the entire number were exterminated. But the Baseler Nachrichten, a neutral Swiss publication employing available Jewish statistical data, establishes that between 1933 and 1945, 1,500,000 Jews emigrated to Britain, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Australia, China, India, Palestine and the United States. This is confirmed by the Jewish journalist Bruno Blau, who cites the same figure in the New York Jewish paper Aufbau, August 13th, 1948. Of these emigrants, approximately 400,000 came from Germany before September 1939. This is acknowledged by the World Jewish Congress in its publication Unity in Dispersion (p. 377), which states that: “The majority of the German Jews succeeded in leaving Germany before the war broke out.” In addition to the German Jews, 220,000 of the total 280,000 Austrian Jews had emigrated by September, 1939, while from March 1939 onwards the Institute for Jewish Emigration in Prague had secured the emigration of 260,000 Jews from former Czechoslovakia. In all, only 360,000 Jews remained in Germany, Austria and Czechoslovakia after September, 1939. From Poland, an estimated 500,000 had emigrated prior to the outbreak of war. These figures mean that the number of Jewish emigrants from other European countries (France, the Netherlands, Italy, the countries of eastern Europe, etc.) was approximately 120,000. This exodus of Jews before and during hostilities, therefore, reduces the number of Jews in Europe to approximately 5,000,000. In addition to these emigrants, we must also include the number of Jews who fled to the Soviet Union after 1939, and who were later evacuated beyond reach of the German invaders. It will be shown below that the majority of these, about 1,250,000, were migrants from Poland. But apart from Poland, Reitlinger admits that 300,000 other European Jews slipped into Soviet territory between 1939 and 1941. This brings the total of Jewish emigrants to the Soviet Union to about 1,550,000. In Colliers magazine, June 9th, 1945, Freiling Foster, writing of the Jews in Russia, explained that “2,200,000 have migrated to the Soviet Union since 1939 to escape from the Nazis,” but our lower estimate is probably more accurate. Jewish migration to the Soviet Union, therefore, reduces the number of Jews within the sphere of German occupation to around 3–1/2 million, approximately 3,450,000. From these should be deducted those Jews living in neutral European countries who escaped the consequences of the war. According to the 1942 World Almanac (p. 594). the number of Jews living in Gibraltar, Britain, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Ireland and Turkey was 413,128.

It doesn't take long to read the entire book (not sure how many pages it actually is in physical form).

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Sieben replied on Mon, Jun 28 2010 9:05 PM

I've heard that piece is not credible, because its guilty of selectively ignoring data. The approach is good though; figuring out how many jews were there before the war, subtracting off the number who emigrated and lived will give you how many who died.

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