http://ecireport.wordpress.com/2009/09/08/subjective-spin-doctor-michael-moore-calls-capitalism-evil
This makes me sad. I can't imagine how many people will be brainwashed by this new documentary =\
Democracy for Breakfast:This makes me sad. I can't imagine how many people will be brainwashed by this new documentary =\
Only the lowest common denominator. Keep appealing to intelligent people.
The more Moore produces, the more scrutiny he will generate.
liberty student: Democracy for Breakfast:This makes me sad. I can't imagine how many people will be brainwashed by this new documentary =\ Only the lowest common denominator. Keep appealing to intelligent people. The more Moore produces, the more scrutiny he will generate.
My Government teacher showed 'Sicko' to the class in my last year of high school, and a lot of the students agreed with the documentary.
I hate how he doesn't include the "evil" that Government has done. Lets just say the Armenian Genocide, Bloody Sunday, Armritsar Massacre, Rape of Nanking, Tianammen Square never happened.
You'd think he'd run out of steam by now.
Democracy for Breakfast:My Government teacher showed 'Sicko' to the class in my last year of high school, and a lot of the students agreed with the documentary.
The purpose of public education is indoctrination.
A comrade of mine was shown Bowling for Columbine in English class. No matter what class you attend, you'll be bombarded by government propaganda (usually in the form of reading passages).
Maybe he should make a film in Russia, or China, or... Mozambique.
:-/
Living there of course...
People like Moore are professional propaganda prostitutes. If US actually becomes totalitarian, he'll make a living by making some fake movies about our socialist paradise :)
If I hear not allowed much oftener; said Sam, I'm going to get angry.
J.R.R.Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Can anyone explain why leftists don't just move to Cuba, North Korea, etc.? I realize it comes across as a right-wing cliche, but seriously, why won't they do so? If the (partially) free market US is sooooooo bad and socialism is soooooo good, then why not get on the first plane out of here?
It can't be hard to find another country with socialized health care, etc. And I doubt moving is that much more difficult or convenient than politically remaking the entire US.
As for the "documentary," if it's anything like Moore's other films then it's loaded with staged scenes, heavily edited footage and invented facts. The only halfway decent movie he ever made was Fahrenheit 9/11 and even that had its moments of idiocy.
I find it atrocious that he benefits so largely over the creativity capitalism allows vs what socialism would allow, and yet hates it.
Freedom has always been the only route to progress.
Cork: Can anyone explain why leftists don't just move to Cuba, North Korea, etc.? I realize it comes across as a right-wing cliche, but seriously, why won't they do so? If the (partially) free market US is sooooooo bad and socialism is soooooo good, then why not get on the first plane out of here? It can't be hard to find another country with socialized health care, etc. And I doubt moving is that much more difficult or convenient than politically remaking the entire US.
In a similar vein, I've often wondered why someone doesn't look at the cost of:
Government healthcare/education/choose your poison/etc.
v.
A plane ticket to the U.K. (or if you're from the U.K., a plane ticket to Sweden and a language dictionary)
The somewhat smarter ones tell me to move to China. (Me, "You're proving my point..." Them, "?")
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"Even when leftists talk about discrimination and sexism, they're damn well talking about the results of the economic system" ~Neodoxy
Libertyandlife:I find it atrocious that he benefits so largely over the creativity capitalism allows vs what socialism would allow, and yet hates it.
He doesn't hate it, any more than Democrats hate Republicans or vice versa.
People need to be adult about what is going on around them. Hannity, Rush, Olbermann and Moore etc. are demagogues. They are actors, playing roles for adults who have the intellectual capacity of infants.
If Moore cared about capitalism, he would give away the proceeds from each film. If he cared about healthcare, he would put down the chocolate bars. He's laughing at the people who believe his films, but probably not as hard as he laughs at the people who get upset about his films.
In the game of polarity politics, all press is good press.
liberty student: He doesn't hate it, any more than Democrats hate Republicans or vice versa. People need to be adult about what is going on around them. Hannity, Rush, Olbermann and Moore etc. are demagogues. They are actors, playing roles for adults who have the intellectual capacity of infants. If Moore cared about capitalism, he would give away the proceeds from each film. If he cared about healthcare, he would put down the chocolate bars. He's laughing at the people who believe his films, but probably not as hard as he laughs at the people who get upset about his films. In the game of polarity politics, all press is good press.
Awesome.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
Well, I saw a preview on Youtube and I gotta say I agree with the message. He just needs to change the title to "Fascism".
liberty student: If Moore cared about capitalism, he would give away the proceeds from each film. If he cared about healthcare, he would put down the chocolate bars. He's laughing at the people who believe his films, but probably not as hard as he laughs at the people who get upset about his films.
I'm tempted to be an anti-capitalist author myself. Cha-ching!
liberty student: Libertyandlife:I find it atrocious that he benefits so largely over the creativity capitalism allows vs what socialism would allow, and yet hates it. He doesn't hate it, any more than Democrats hate Republicans or vice versa. People need to be adult about what is going on around them. Hannity, Rush, Olbermann and Moore etc. are demagogues. They are actors, playing roles for adults who have the intellectual capacity of infants. If Moore cared about capitalism, he would give away the proceeds from each film. If he cared about healthcare, he would put down the chocolate bars. He's laughing at the people who believe his films, but probably not as hard as he laughs at the people who get upset about his films. In the game of polarity politics, all press is good press.
H.P. Lovecraft had to say about a newspaper of his times "Its articles written in the sensation seeking style perfectly suited to its readers and their highly immature brains"... are you related to Lovecraft by chance? Jokes set aside that's good writing, couldn't agree more.
Given the hysterical greeting Moore received at the Venice Movie Festival I am inclined to say he mostly works for the European market these days. Our leftists idolize him, and I am not making this up: he is probably held in higher regard than Messiah Obama. But far from him to move to Europe... very ironical considering he would be able to milk governments for "art subsidies" to make his movies!
I wouldn't be surprised if he genuinely hated "capitalism". It seems the vast majority of artists on all levels (from very local and obscure to all but their girl friends to globally popular, from high brow to low brow) hate "capitalism"; it has been that way for some time. It may be so deeply ingrained in many of these types of people it would be next to impossible to convince them otherwise. It seems to be part of the culture; my hunch, it will probably be one of the last things that would change as far as the general view of markets is concerned. It seems to have somehow got far too entrenched in that culture to expect anything else.
Note I said "I wouldn't be surprised"; If Moore, Olbermann, Rush, and maybe even the Daily Show, etc were ALL essentially Squealer writing "four legs good, two legs better" I wouldn't be too surprised about that either.
I also would not go as far as to say "adults with the intellectual capacity of infants". While that may be some of their crowd, Moore and company probably appeal a great deal to adults who are not as focused on the grand political, economical, or philisophical points as you. These people are there for adults to "seek general info". Kind of like how I would consult my mechanic for reparing the car. I may end up with a rip off car and a shady mechanic, it is however a field of lower importance to me, and nothing I wish to be an expert in or probably ever will be an expert in. I may be somewhat of an idiot and apathetic about cars, but I don't think that would make me a general all around idiot.
The problem for me is when masses of people get to dictate how yet another portion of my life operates after watching a piece of 9th rate intellectual quality. This makes me worried if Moore is shown in public schools.
Of course they hate capitalism. And I'm sorry to say we do need the government.
Without the government, where would all the thieves, lay abouts, morons, busy bodies, derranged and degenerate, and the just generally useless find employment?
xahrx: Of course they hate capitalism. And I'm sorry to say we do need the government. Without the government, where would all the thieves, lay abouts, morons, busy bodies, derranged and degenerate, and the just generally useless find employment?
Good point. While Hazlitt claims that those people will be employed elsewhere as the funds now supporting them are freed, I suppose the productivity of our top notch politicians will not even justify subsitence level wages ;) That reminds me of a German politician, the ex-leader of the Young Socialists, who dropped out of university after just 13 years without a degree, just to become full-time politician of the Social-Democratic Party. He's my new favorite (OK, I really like our minister for economic affairs, too, who said he's now going "back to the roots" with his new post because he was doing some work in his family's business 10 years ago or so).
Dondoolee:I also would not go as far as to say "adults with the intellectual capacity of infants".
That is what they are. I do some marketing. Most people are very dull and childlike. They can be manipulated (and are) by emotional appeals to do anything.
liberty student: That is what they are. I do some marketing. Most people are very dull and childlike. They can be manipulated (and are) by emotional appeals to do anything.
Liberty Student
Can you please define what an adult with the intellectual capacity of an infant is, and how a person can avoid being one?
Schools are labour camps.
He defined more or less in the post you quoted.
Caley McKibbin:He defined more or less in the post you quoted.
Emotionally immature is not the impression I get from dull and childlike.
eliotn:Can you please define what an adult with the intellectual capacity of an infant is
The people in Oprah's studio audience.
eliotn:and how a person can avoid being one?
Sell your TV.
liberty student: eliotn:and how a person can avoid being one? Sell your TV.
What if I only watch Cartoon Network? And NEVER NEVER NEVER watch any news?
eliotn: liberty student: eliotn:and how a person can avoid being one? Sell your TV. What if I only watch Cartoon Network? And NEVER NEVER NEVER watch any news?
In any case, why bother to continue with TV? Just download it all off of torrents if you really want to watch something & use your computer & internet connection instead. At least then, you can voluntarily choose to be subjected to televisional opiates with less exposure to advertising & control your time & exposure more directly. If anything, I've been relying more and more for Internet-grown entertainment & more local stuff to supplement television time. When I'm not reading, writing, & composing music, of course.
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
liberty student: Dondoolee:I also would not go as far as to say "adults with the intellectual capacity of infants". That is what they are. I do some marketing. Most people are very dull and childlike. They can be manipulated (and are) by emotional appeals to do anything.
I think saying people have a wide variety of interests and most are not as focused on some activities as others is more probable. Many people may be more concerned with riding motorcyles, drinking, being around friends, raising their children, making enough money to live to their comfort level, pursuing the opposite sex, creating some form of art, enjoying movies, etc than caring to much about politics, economics, philosophy, and the like. While they may have an interest in some aspect of grand politics it may not be one of their major "drives".
Marketing pretty much requires the person marketing to have more knowledge and expertise in the product they are trying to sell than the person buying it, otherwise the person usually wouldn't be seeking a salesman's advice. The manipulation of the sale works simply because the people are kind of allowing themselves to be manipulated.
Emotions exist for a reason. They have been useful for humans to survive, otherwise we most likley wouldn't have them. In fact I buy lots of things because it makes me "feel good", such as a good whisky or a good piece of music. Me ownig an animal is certainly not due to any appeal to reason.
Dondoolee:I think saying people have a wide variety of interests and most are not as focused on some activities as others is more probable.
You give them more credit than I do.
Dondoolee:Marketing pretty much requires the person marketing to have more knowledge and expertise in the product they are trying to sell than the person buying it, otherwise the person usually wouldn't be seeking a salesman's advice.
Most marketing is not done through a salesman People don't want informed opinions. They want to be told what they want to hear. They want someone like Oprah to sell them on "The Secret", where they can wish for anything and it will be granted. They want to be told the stock market is going up, and up and up. They want to be told that the next President will save them.
Dondoolee:The manipulation of the sale works simply because the people are kind of allowing themselves to be manipulated.
The manipulation works because people with low IQs (and some with high IQs) have low impulse control, and act without thinking. Appeals to emotion only work as long as reason isn't engaged.
nandnor:But the only people with the capability not to be influenced by empathy and emotions are sociopaths. Every mentally normal people is vulnerable.
I'm not talking about people who cannot be influenced by empathy or emotions. I am talking about people who cannot control their emotions through reason.
liberty student:They want someone like Oprah to sell them on "The Secret", where they can wish for anything and it will be granted.
Sort of off topic, but wanted to bring this up. Do not take wish for anything and be granted too literally. Rather, it makes the claim that if you are focused on pursuing the means you want, you will better achieve your ends. If you think positive, you will live your life better.
This is true, to a degree I think. But I think this mostly takes effect when people are seeking things they have little control over, or less expertise in. Example: Mr. Dad may be somewhat irked when a 18 yr old salesmen/ Neighbor Joe tries to sell him products on how to take care of his lawn. He may be more susceptible to getting sold on some great "hope" that will make the world a better place however, because this is a product that sounds good and he wants; but not a thing he has devoted too much time on, nor do I think he should.
I don't blame the majority of people, I would look at the system in place that allows it. Sure they have been sold and conned, but I don't think it is them being "stupid" in general. I think it has more to do with them being generaly apathetic and unconcerned about the "big things" (which is probably a very good thing) and much more concerned about their lawns, etc. Unfortunatly, part of the con is being bombarded by every form of media telling them how stupid and subordinate they are for caring more about their lawns then "the big picture".
Believe it or not, low impulse control is a survival mechanism. We have it because it is useful. In our current era it is probably of less value than in pre historic times but it is a trait that the human species (and most other species that I am aware of) value it. There is also no study that I am aware of that correlates IQ and impulse control, as far as I know impulse control is distributed in an unremarkable way in relation to intellegence. Remember boredom, procratination, ADD are all part of impulse.
Once again, I don't blame the majority of the people for the Great Con as much as I blame the system in place. Even a Michael Moore type may be naive in what they are doing, and may not think of themselves as Squealers. In other words Michael Moore types may be sales men who have been sold by someone who has been sold. Mass Popular Government has been in place so long iI think you would agree some of it's fables are now being served with no propaganda needed to fuel it and are indeed, part of everyday life and thought.
Dondoolee:Even a Michael Moore type may be naive in what they are doing, and may not think of themselves as Squealers. In other words Michael Moore types may be sales men who have been sold by someone who has been sold.
Now that is a pretty good demonstration of naiveté.
Dondoolee:Mass Popular Government has been in place so long iI think you would agree some of it's fables are now being served with no propaganda needed to fuel it and are indeed, part of everyday life and thought.
Mencken understood the mentality of the masses.
The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably not true. It is the chief occupation of mankind.
Dondoolee: Unfortunatly, part of the con is being bombarded by every form of media telling them how stupid and subordinate they are for caring more about their lawns then "the big picture".
Unfortunatly, part of the con is being bombarded by every form of media telling them how stupid and subordinate they are for caring more about their lawns then "the big picture".
if everybody was doing this more often and spontaneously creating links with their neighbors or local lawn company (cause they need to care for their lawns), then they'd be tired and going to bed without watching TV that much. Obama and others would have to show up at the local lawn company to spread his message. Maybe that would be a good propaganda commercial. Obama watering flowers with a green thumb.
being in the lawn or woods or out in about in the streets or a really good book is where the free space exists and the thoughts have room to grow.
All of them?
Dondoolee:All of them?
You pick now to quibble over the collectivization of our subject group?
liberty student: Dondoolee:All of them? You pick now to quibble over the collectivization of our subject group?
I have been quibbling over the subject group from the start. I have been trying to point out that all "the masses" are, are people who hold a smaller interest or less skill in the area that you specialize in. As you are probably part of "the masses" when it comes to Zoroastrianism, the theology of the Eastern Orthodox Church, rocks, anatomy, motorcycle repair, the fast food industry, etc. Most people don't care about the "big picture", and are fine as long as they percieve their lives as relativley comfortable pursuing things they find of interest at the time. I see no problem with people behaving this way.
Of course Mencken can look at the big picture and how groups of people tend to react, he had the time and interest to do it. Hell, it was his job, and he was one of the best I know of at it. Steel Worker Joe who may have the same mental capacity as Mencken doesn't have the same priorities. He works 40 hrs a week at a steel mill leaving less time to think about the big picture plus he values drinking, hanging out with his friends, and being with his wife more than using his free time to seriously educate himself on philosophy and politics. Steel Worker Joe was probably much better at spending time with Steel Worker Joe's friend's and wife than Mencken was at hanging out with Joe's wife and friends. He was probably a better Steel Worker too. But Mencken was probably less likely to be sold by a politician's BS than Joe would be.
In previous posts when I use lines such as:
I think saying people have a wide variety of interests and most are not as focused on some activities as others is more probable
don't blame the majority of people, I would look at the system in place that allows it
It is obvious that I am trying to redefine and re-align the way the term "masses" is being used.
The Constitution gives the government duty to protect the rights, and defend its citizens. And what does this have to do with employment?
Actually the Constitution is a limit on the government and its power. Strictly speaking it allows the government to do certain things. I wouldn't say it gives it any rights. At best, delegates them.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...