I've started to notice these points being used frequently by my opponents in discussions on proverbial schools.
1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic.
2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world.
3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.
4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences.
5. Kid raising tool.
What say you denizens of Mises forum?
What are they going to do about it when we stop paying taxes and there is no government? I know this is not a convincing argument, but really, anyone that would believe those cliches probably cannot be convinced.
But here is a more thorough critique:
1. It is baseless and fearmongoring. Government schools did not always exist and people could do reading, writing, and arithmetic before then. Not only that, but people who are home-schooled can read, write, and do arithmetic.
2. a. People in private schools and private classes get social interaction. b. Baseless assertion that children need it to learn how to cooperate. Make them prove it.
3. It is up to the parents and children to decide.
4. No, not all of it is indoctrination. So?
5. Yes, I would agree it is mostly baby-sitting.
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
Do some research into Gatto
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=25171
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cmlqI (Part 1 of 5)
Gatto on Infowars (Part 1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jzc7Js4wqQ
I moved around a lot, and changed schools 8 times from Montessori to University (dropped out). School is almost completely indoctrination. I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed.
God, don't get me started. I would never place a child into the brutal and animalistic environment that is a public school.
DarkCatalyst: God, don't get me started. I would never place a child into the brutal and animalistic environment that is a public school.
Do elaborate please. I would love to hear the meticulous perspectives of people here on this subject.
Capital Pumper:Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.
OMG, how did anyone raise children without governments pointing guns at their heads?
What parent do you know gives their kid the choice? Or are parents assumed to be as dumb as their kids? I guess we'll need a public program we all pay into to feed them, bathe them, and wipe their asses, because it's possible some lazy parents might not without the threat of violence.
Capital Pumper:4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math.
How much math and hard science did you learn in K-12, and how much was history, civics, gym, etc?
liberty student: Do some research into Gatto http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=25171 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cmlqI (Part 1 of 5) Gatto on Infowars (Part 1 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jzc7Js4wqQ I moved around a lot, and changed schools 8 times from Montessori to University (dropped out). School is almost completely indoctrination. I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed.
OMG LS. This post made my day. I plan on writing an essay about education and mental born illnesses sometime next year. Thanks soo much for this. Somehow I didn't even know about Gatto. I've been spending all my time reading obscured and inconclusive studies which somehow changes patterns of natural behavior into mental retardations, like ADD and ADHD =p. I shall plan on reading some of Gatto's stuff before I write my thesis. Thanks again buddy.
filc:Thanks again buddy.
No worries. I think his book is available online for free. He covers the history of public education, and its roots in the militaristic Prussian system,etc.
I am looking for his first Infowars interview, because it was much better than the 2nd one (which I posted). If I find it, I will send it to you.
DUH, it was on Nielsio's channel!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1kgSlLawyQ
That is one of the best channels on YouTube IMO.
Thanks again!
Capital Pumper: I've started to notice these points being used frequently by my opponents in discussions on proverbial schools. 1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic. 2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world. 3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future. 4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences. 5. Kid raising tool. What say you denizens of Mises forum?
Now are we talking about public schools? or the abolishment of schooling altogather? because I think thats just darn crazy.
I'm in favor of student vouchers provided by the Government, while the abolishment of NCLB, Dept of Education school districts, and Teacher's Unions.
I agree with most of the people in this topic, I would never send my child to a public school, I plan on sending mine to a private institution or montessori. They are very expensive schools though, and because of the establishment of education.
Here, this is a good video. Everyone check this out.
Watch this whole thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw
In parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UawUHbKCzws&feature=PlayList&p=F12FA7D6E2EBB7BE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=16
Democracy for Breakfast: Now are we talking about public schools? or the abolishment of schooling altogather? because I think thats just darn crazy.
It depends on the subjects. Anything that has the slightest political impact has to be abolished, which would simply happen in a free school system. Competitive firms have strict apolitical policy.
liberty student: No worries. I think his book is available online for free. He covers the history of public education, and its roots in the militaristic Prussian system,etc.
The Underground History of American Education: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/
It's a very good book. It was pretty much the first thing I ever read that suggested removing an institution and liberalizing it.
Capital Pumper: Do elaborate please. I would love to hear the meticulous perspectives of people here on this subject.
I will when I get a good block of time. I'll tell you about the time I was railroaded into a two week suspension during my Catholic high school years. Anyway, I should have been clearer earlier. I oppose any sort of mass schooling, be it public or private.
Read Rand's "The Comprachicos" if you haven't already. She exaggerates some things but does make several good points.
liberty student:I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed.
I second that. Self direction is the key. Institutions are a waste of money and time. Well I would pay for an engineering degree. I think it's worth about 15k. Since I can't get one for that price. I pay $30 a month for the internet. Learn all the same stuff, and have access to more professionals.
Criminals, there ought to be a law.
Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more. Bon Scott.
The Mises institute is of course the exception. It's free. MIT now too.
Saan: liberty student:I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed. I second that. Self direction is the key. Institutions are a waste of money and time. Well I would pay for an engineering degree. I think it's worth about 15k. Since I can't get one for that price. I pay $30 a month for the internet. Learn all the same stuff, and have access to more professionals.
Well thats nice and all, but how many people would have the motivation to do that? Also, employers won't look at you if you tell them your education is from the internet. I very well could learn the things I'm going to college for, but there's things a Masters of Liberal Arts can't obtain through the internet. While some courses are boring, especially my remedial math course, its called an "opportunity" and if you want to gain entry into higher education you have to take, it doesn't matter weather your a libertarian or not.
College is very important, the diverse community and clubs broaden your horizons of the world. Professors are sometimes biased, but a lot of the time they are interested to hear about a theory they don't have a lot of students talk to them about. My Poli Sci teacher took a specific interest in me last year, because of my libertarianism, while he never agreed, he never had another student with the same philosophies.
Being a member of Mises doesn't mean you get to feel like an elitist and that you are above schooling just because you may have way different beliefs then other people do.
While you are correct that self direction is a key, your argument about institutions being a waste of time doesn't work. You can't learn a language as well as you could from a paid institution, and I think learning a language is highly important to enhancing your awareness of other cultures.
Saan:I second that. Self direction is the key. Institutions are a waste of money and time.
Particularly in doing anything in IT, by the time you reach the 3rd year of your degree, a good portion of the course load may be outdated.
I work online, and probably spend 15 hours a week keeping up with industry developments. I'm pretty sure this will be the model going forward. People having to upgrade as they work, or risk their productive advantage wiped out through obselence.
Its actually kind of disappointing to see some people here seem to think that being libertarian means they are above college because they hold different views. While indocterination is evident in some cases, its up to you.
In High School teachers held your hand through what you should learn and consider, but in College your all on your own and its up to you to make the best and most productive of your education.
Democracy for Breakfast:College is very important, the diverse community and clubs broaden your horizons of the world. Professors are sometimes biased, but a lot of the time they are interested to hear about a theory they don't have a lot of students talk to them about. My Poli Sci teacher took a specific interest in me last year, because of my libertarianism, while he never agreed, he never had another student with the same philosophies.
Not necessarily.
A person leaving highschool who wants to work in IT has two paths. Immediately start his career by seeking work and working his way up through employers or by getting a degree. The individual who has 4 years of experience will have far more career opportunity's over the individual who has a 4 year bachelors of science. In IT experience holds far more weight, this is true for most engineering disciplines.
Democracy for Breakfast:Well thats nice and all, but how many people would have the motivation to do that?
I don't know how many?
Democracy for Breakfast:Also, employers won't look at you if you tell them your education is from the internet.
But they will if you tell them it is from experience.
Democracy for Breakfast:Masters of Liberal Arts
Certificate. Expensive certificate.
Democracy for Breakfast:College is very important
Subjective.
Democracy for Breakfast:Being a member of Mises doesn't mean you get to feel like an elitist and that you are above schooling just because you may have way different beliefs then other people do.
Careful. I have not made such a claim.
Democracy for Breakfast:You can't learn a language as well as you could from a paid institution, and I think learning a language is highly important to enhancing your awareness of other cultures.
I learned a language with my ears and eyes, in fact I learned two this way. No institution.
I don't value most institution's at their current prices. That is all. Cheers
Democracy for Breakfast:In High School teachers held your hand through what you should learn and consider, but in College your all on your own and its up to you to make the best and most productive of your education.
Have you been to college? The college I went to was just as dull and boring as high school. The professors taught just the one side of all the issues, their side. There was next to no discussion in the classes. I just had to parrot back what they taught me. That is not "learning", imo. That is memorization.
Saan: Democracy for Breakfast:You can't learn a language as well as you could from a paid institution, and I think learning a language is highly important to enhancing your awareness of other cultures. I learned a language with my ears and eyes, in fact I learned two this way. No institution.
Learning a language from an institution is perhaps the worst way. I also learned with my eyes and ears. I speak far better then folks who have spent a decade more then me in school learning the same lang.
Saan:I don't value most institution's at their current prices. That is all. Cheers
Outstanding statement. The price of education right now far exceeds its true value IMO. I also think tuition prices have ballooned in the exact same manner as houses. The problem is education isn't tied to a tangible investment object, like a house. So it's continued growth is due to cultural degeneration which continues to encourage people into these ridiculous institutions. That is ofocarse my opinion.
Spideynw: Democracy for Breakfast:In High School teachers held your hand through what you should learn and consider, but in College your all on your own and its up to you to make the best and most productive of your education. Have you been to college? The college I went to was just as dull and boring as high school. The professors taught just the one side of all the issues, their side. There was next to no discussion in the classes. I just had to parrot back what they taught me. That is not "learning", imo. That is memorization.
Yes, I go to a four year college currently. Have you been to a college? That sounds like your typical first year experience, which isn't very exciting since they're teaching most of the basics.
And it depends on the College you went to, your statement is very surprising, maybe you just went to a shitty school or a 2 year Community College.
filc: Saan: Democracy for Breakfast:You can't learn a language as well as you could from a paid institution, and I think learning a language is highly important to enhancing your awareness of other cultures. I learned a language with my ears and eyes, in fact I learned two this way. No institution. Learning a language from an institution is perhaps the worst way. I also learned with my eyes and ears. I speak far better then folks who have spent a decade more then me in school learning the same lang. Saan:I don't value most institution's at their current prices. That is all. Cheers Outstanding statement. The price of education right now far exceeds its true value IMO. I also think tuition prices have ballooned in the exact same manner as houses. The problem is education isn't tied to a tangible investment object, like a house. So it's continued growth is due to cultural degeneration which continues to encourage people into these ridiculous institutions. That is ofocarse my opinion.
Don't expect to get a language down from just a college course. Learning a language effectively requires having some cultural connection to it. this would involve travelling, clubs, humanitarianism, going to school in another country, ect.
Most students I know who are majoring in a language have done such, and its much easier for them to travel with student vistas.
Democracy for Breakfast: Don't expect to get a language down from just a college course. Learning a language effectively requires having some cultural connection to it. this would involve travelling, clubs, humanitarianism, going to school in another country, ect. Most students I know who are majoring in a language have done such, and its much easier for them to travel with student vistas.
In my case I just skipped the school part and went straight for the cultural, traveling, clubbing, humanitarianism aspect of it. :)
I do have a 4year BS though. it's just an engineering degree.
Capital Pumper: To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences.
imagine if they had public schools in copernicus's day -we should all be drawing epicycles now! I believe that the teaching of science and objective classes are just as liable to becoming propaganda as anything in history or political science. In my opinion too, the math and science being taught at school is generally not going to be cutting edge specialized stuff -in math I don't think that mathematicians calculate logs by hand or that they think about the pythagorean theorem all that much and in science people already seem to be improving on natural selection theory and aren't too fussy about calculating the punett square.
Capital Pumper: 3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.
wouldn't that just mean other countries would begin specializing in making our food, dress, capital, etc. and we would specialize in videogame reviews and such? That would be the perfect life!
filc: Democracy for Breakfast: Don't expect to get a language down from just a college course. Learning a language effectively requires having some cultural connection to it. this would involve travelling, clubs, humanitarianism, going to school in another country, ect. Most students I know who are majoring in a language have done such, and its much easier for them to travel with student vistas. In my case I just skipped the school part and went straight for the cultural, traveling, clubbing, humanitarianism aspect of it. :) I do have a 4year BS though. it's just an engineering degree.
Sure if your wealthy enough to have the funds to do all that, which you don't need at a University student vista.
Democracy for Breakfast:Sure if your wealthy enough to have the funds to do all that, which you don't need at a University student vista.
I'm pretty sure a college tuition is at least 10 times greater then a trip to Honduras. :)
fakename: Capital Pumper: To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences. imagine if they had public schools in copernicus's day -we should all be drawing epicycles now! I believe that the teaching of science and objective classes are just as liable to becoming propaganda as anything in history or political science. In my opinion too, the math and science being taught at school is generally not going to be cutting edge specialized stuff -in math I don't think that mathematicians calculate logs by hand or that they think about the pythagorean theorem all that much and in science people already seem to be improving on natural selection theory and aren't too fussy about calculating the punett square. Capital Pumper: 3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future. wouldn't that just mean other countries would begin specializing in making our food, dress, capital, etc. and we would specialize in videogame reviews and such? That would be the perfect life!
Children are generally not motivated enough, or have the will to make decisions for their own. Children don't enjoy going to school everyday. I have experience with Children when I've had students to learn Piano. Most of the child students I had never practiced, because they didn't have the motivation to learn themselves, and don't see why they should.
Being a kid is frustrating though, especially a teenager when you start to develop your own identity and it feels overbearing to have your parents on your back.
Its important to limit the amount of media a child is exposed to. I agree that I would have missed out on a lot if I didn't get to grow up watching Toonami. It would depend on the program, if its something like an anime series, or a TV series that follows a storyline and eventually ends I would let him watch it. I however will be skeptical on how my kid is being indocterinated by the media.
I am in favor of Student Voucher's however. If kids have little say in the matter, then its up to the parents to make good decisions for them. I believe in self ownership and individualism, so I would therefore send my child to a Montessori School.
The argument that parents, or anyone, need to make decisions for children for their own good due to a knowledge gap is abused to absurdity by nearly everyone. It applies only when you can demonstrably succeed at meeting goals with actions and have the same goals as the child. Imposing goals is serving your own good, not serving his.
Caley McKibbin: The argument that parents, or anyone, need to make decisions for children for their own good due to a knowledge gap is abused to absurdity by nearly everyone. It applies only when you can demonstrably succeed at meeting goals with actions and have the same goals as the child. Imposing goals is serving your own good, not serving his.
People who possess the "impose yourself on children" mindset I have found to be quite nasty. Their ends are to force obedience and delusions onto children. All that follows is failure and optimum frustration for our ivory tower villains; however, this is where the real fun begins. Such a person does not self-reflect, and instead resorts to scapegoating; subsequently attempting to demoralize his/her target child by exploiting his/her weaknesses (mental, emotional, or material).
Capital Pumper:People who possess the "impose yourself on children" mindset I have found to be quite nasty. Their ends are to force obedience and delusions onto children. All that follows is failure and optimum frustration for our ivory-tower villains; however, this is where the real fun begins. Such a person does not self-reflect, and instead resorts to scapegoating; subsequently attempting demoralize his/her target child by exploiting his/her weaknesses (mental, emotional, or material).
In my analysis this is quite true and the sad thing is that most people who do it will pride themselves on the good qualities of their children though these qualities are just shallow displays or wouldn't have been there had the child already had some attraction towards such qualities already. It is the same with adults too.
fakename: Capital Pumper:People who possess the "impose yourself on children" mindset I have found to be quite nasty. Their ends are to force obedience and delusions onto children. All that follows is failure and optimum frustration for our ivory-tower villains; however, this is where the real fun begins. Such a person does not self-reflect, and instead resorts to scapegoating; subsequently attempting demoralize his/her target child by exploiting his/her weaknesses (mental, emotional, or material). In my analysis this is quite true and the sad thing is that most people who do it will pride themselves on the good qualities of their children though these qualities are just shallow displays or wouldn't have been there had the child already had some attraction towards such qualities already. It is the same with adults too.
Well, its hard. Because if you tell your kid how smart they are, it could turn out to be like Ender's Game where he is isolated, rejected, and makes a lot of enemies for being top of the class.
Democracy for Breakfast:Children are generally not motivated enough, or have the will to make decisions for their own. Children don't enjoy going to school everyday. I have experience with Children when I've had students to learn Piano. Most of the child students I had never practiced, because they didn't have the motivation to learn themselves, and don't see why they should.
BULL. I have a 7-year old and I've never met an adult in my life as curious about the world and eager to learn as she is. Almost any topic we discuss leads to her wanting to know more about it. She will also cry (a lot) if I tell her she can't go to school that day.
The problem is that most people don't teach their children HOW to learn. If a child knows how to teach itself a new topic by research and analysis, they can learn almost any subject. In fact I would even say they could MASTER almost any subject.
MatthewF: BULL. I have a 7-year old and I've never met an adult in my life as curious about the world and eager to learn as she is. Almost any topic we discuss leads to her wanting to know more about it. She will also cry (a lot) if I tell her she can't go to school that day. The problem is that most people don't teach their children HOW to learn. If a child knows how to teach itself a new topic by research and analysis, they can learn almost any subject. In fact I would even say they could MASTER almost any subject.
QFT
You'll have to help me out (I went to public school).
QFT?
However, I do know how to use Google...
QuotedForTruth
MatthewF: Democracy for Breakfast:Children are generally not motivated enough, or have the will to make decisions for their own. Children don't enjoy going to school everyday. I have experience with Children when I've had students to learn Piano. Most of the child students I had never practiced, because they didn't have the motivation to learn themselves, and don't see why they should. BULL. I have a 7-year old and I've never met an adult in my life as curious about the world and eager to learn as she is. Almost any topic we discuss leads to her wanting to know more about it. She will also cry (a lot) if I tell her she can't go to school that day. The problem is that most people don't teach their children HOW to learn. If a child knows how to teach itself a new topic by research and analysis, they can learn almost any subject. In fact I would even say they could MASTER almost any subject.
Thats subjective. When I was that age, I loathed going to school. It wasn't really until I became a teenager in high school that I became super curious about subjects.
I just wanted to play video games at that age.
However this is in part due to a few reasons. I went to a shitty school in a low income town in Tennessee, where the education wasn't very good and the teachers drove me crazy. At age 12-14 my two years in Middle School, I was going to attempt suicide many times because of how much it stressed me out. Teacher's getting into my personal life, and getting up in your face and screaming at you for a little misbehaving in class. One incident that made me want to call it quits, was when the the councilor, a couple teachers, and my parents got together and put me through a therapy program where I literally had no choice to oblige to, afterwards I got put on medication that I never asked for just so that I could "learn".
I didn't see a point to anything I was learning, because I always felt like it was to prepare me for a "test" where you fill in bubbles, which it is.
The point is, a child is too young to see his/her education's worth on a grand scale, and generally ends up neglecting school. I cared more about Video Games, Power Rangers, and the Sci Fi books I was reading at the time then learning about math and numbers, and being picked on by teachers if I REALLY did not understand it.
Also, another thing that really killed it for me, is that your say in public schooling as to what you want to learn doesn't seem to really matter, they "FORCE" you of what to write an essay about, or what to be interested in.