http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20091004231103793
I am not sure what 'anarchist collective' means, but I could take a guess. Either way, these people need help to defend themselves again the police state that stole among tax forms, etc., their Buffy the Vampire Slayer DVD collection as 'evidence' necessary to press charge. It is an mortifying. They have asked for any help they can get, and I sent something to them, and just wanted to give other people the opportunity to.
Thanks,
Amelia
What kind of anarchists are they claiming to be?
infoshop.org:
Anarchists who hate the state and capitalism? Sound more like confused children to me. Some of those so called anarchists were destroying property. When they do that they are basically doing the same thing as the state, only in a more direct way.
filc: What kind of anarchists are they claiming to be?
Believe it or not, these are rather mainstream anarchists. We are considered the unusual ones.
I guess if modern liberals can use Capitalism in the place of fascism these kids can call themselves whatever they want.
Still I guess what I am wondering is what exactly is a mainstream anarchism? Most of these people seem to have all kinds of moral inconsistencies with their beliefs and are as a whole ethically confused.
These are not libertarians.
I know. Anarchist collective makes no sense. I have just to say...
(1) The property they were destroying was government propert. No, I do not advocate this but it is a distinction that should be made.
(2) Yes, they are inconsistent, but they are revolting against the current system that they have been taught is capitalism, which we know is not. In my e-mail to them, I asked them what they meant by this. It is a childish idea, I understand, but perhaps if it is explained to them that we are not in such a society, they can be convinced otherwise, but either way...
(3) An enemy of my enemy is my friend.
(4) Their position doesn't change the fact that if it can happen to them, it can happen to you. This is wrong and a violation of rights.
I understand if you do not want to help them. I was just putting it out there.
vreelanda:(3) An enemy of my enemy is my friend.
That's ridiculous.
vreelanda:(4) Their position doesn't change the fact that if it can happen to them, it can happen to you. This is wrong and a violation of rights.
They don't believe in rights. They don't believe in state law. They certainly don't believe in natural rights.
vreelanda:I understand if you do not want to help them.
Do you really though? They make all anarchists look bad, they encourage the state to be more tyrannical, and they actually hate free marketers like us because they are economically ignorant.
I feel bad for them when the state steps on them, but (1) they ask for it, and (2) they are engaging in unproductive behaviour (towards liberty). Why would I subsidize people who look for trouble, find it, and then accomplish nothing by it? It would make more sense to subsidize people who actually create and influence positive change.
classic post LS
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
I got the e-mail back from them:
"Of course your support counts for something, it means a lot to us going through this. I would love to explain an anarchist collective, it is simply a group of people working and/or living together where decisions are made by consensus and there are no fixed roles or leaders. It is based on mutual aid, voluntary association and respect. There is more and the fact we are anarchists mean we share some basic political outlooks but unlike communists we do have a dogma, single text or even agree on all that much. There is the freedom of the individual in a supportive community. I hope that helps, I have so much to do with all of these absurd repressions.Take care,Tortuga"
vreelanda: I got the e-mail back from them: "Of course your support counts for something, it means a lot to us going through this. I would love to explain an anarchist collective, it is simply a group of people working and/or living together where decisions are made by consensus and there are no fixed roles or leaders. It is based on mutual aid, voluntary association and respect. There is more and the fact we are anarchists mean we share some basic political outlooks but unlike communists we do have a dogma, single text or even agree on all that much. There is the freedom of the individual in a supportive community. I hope that helps, I have so much to do with all of these absurd repressions.Take care,Tortuga"
They don't mention private property rights.
To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process. Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!" Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."
I do, really, understand if you wouldn't want to help them. What am I going to do, force you to do it? Hah. I think that it is okay for people to voluntarily decide to be bound to each other, as long as they do not ask me to be the same--they are free to leave at any time. Do I think their position will be unsustainable? Yes. Do I think that such a small group of people would have a huge effect on a society if the current system were to be dismantled? No.
You don't know what they believe in. You are making broad assumption without looking into it.
So, because they don't state things in exactly the same way we do, their position is invalid? Is voluntary association not one of the pillar arguments why people are against the state?
vreelanda:So, because they don't state things in exactly the same way we do, their position is invalid?
How do we state things?
vreelanda: So, because they don't state things in exactly the same way we do, their position is invalid? Is voluntary association not one of the pillar arguments why people are against the state?
What in the email they sent you means "private property rights"?
They are saying that there idea is based on non-aggression and private property rights. They are denoting this by saying, we do not agree with each other, we produce and share because we want to, there is no hierarchy (which I do not think is efficient), and it is based on voluntary cooperation.
"We" state things, i.e. Libertarians, AustroLibertarians, AnarchoCapitalists, etc., as private property rights and the non-aggression principle. Of course this is very broad, saying "we," but certainly we have that in common. That they do not think in these terms does not mean they disagree. If they are anti-capitalist, it is because they think we live in a capitalist system now, or that such a system produces monopoly. Do you think we should never reach a hand out to people that agree with us on some things? How do you actually get change to occur? By discussing things only with those who agree with you, or reaching you hand out to people who may readily agree with you if they were to have it explained to them the right way? Even if you could enact change by 'armed revolution' or whatever, you would still need the majority of people to agree with you before the sort of society you want to exist could.
vreelanda: They are saying that there idea is based on non-aggression and private property rights. They are denoting this by saying, we do not agree with each other, we produce and share because we want to, there is no hierarchy (which I do not think is efficient), and it is based on voluntary cooperation. ...
...
That doesn't mean they favor private property rights. To anarcho-commie or anarcho-socialist, "private property" is a violation of rights.
Okay. But these people want it to be voluntary, as everything would have to be an anarchist society, otherwise they would obliterate themselves. If they don't understand this, they would have to.
I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it. I wanted to let people know their were people who think the state is their enemy, and they were asking of help from those who would wish. I didn't realize I would so much have to defend voluntary fraternity. I am willing to, but was surprised.
vreelanda: I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it.
I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it.
I am a little confused about what the raid was really over. Protesting the G20 isnt something that would usually bring out the Joint Terrorism Task Force...
Daniel:That doesn't mean they favor private property rights. To anarcho-commie or anarcho-socialist, "private property" is a violation of rights.
Arn't "Anarcho-socialists" and "Anarcho-commie" antonyms?
These groups get some attention now because they claim to have a voluntary association and prey on confused college kids who see something is wrong but make no effort to learn on their own what exactly that wrong is. Notice how membership of these groups fluctuate as they are inherently unsustainable. They have no basic economic understanding and that is their downfall. True Anarchist Socialism is inherently impossible, just as night cannot be day.
How exactly are we suppose to help them anyhow?
The reason these anarchists hate the state is because they hate capitalism. They believe the state protects private property... lmao!
Amelia Vreeland: Okay. But these people want it to be voluntary, as everything would have to be an anarchist society, otherwise they would obliterate themselves. If they don't understand this, they would have to.
Under anarcho-commie-ism and anarcho-socialism, I would be able to voluntarily sell you my factory, because their would be no "my factory".
Amelia Vreeland:I am not saying they deserve your help. I didn't realize this would be so controversial. It crossed my mind that people would get angry about the whole anarchist collective thing, but I thought they would still want to, even if not help, know that this was something that was going on. If they knew already, they could ignore it. I wanted to let people know their were people who think the state is their enemy, and they were asking of help from those who would wish. I didn't realize I would so much have to defend voluntary fraternity. I am willing to, but was surprised.
We're not trying to be hostile (at least I'm not) towards you. But the "anarchists" at those protest are usually anarcho-commies or anarcho-socialist. So we anarcho-capitalist would agree with them that we should do away with the state, but the differ on what we should replace the current system with. And they don't hate the state because the state violates private property. To the contrary, they are anti-state because they believe the states protects private property of the capitalist.
I don't know how you are supposed to help them. I sent my sympathies and they were appreciative because they are humans and like to know that there are people that care when bad things happen.
I understand why they think that the state is bad, if they are indeed anarcho-socialist, and honestly, I didn't look into it very much. I am trying to start a dialogue with them to see if that is the case and see if maybe we can have a rational discussion about it because it is important to see the other side of things so that you can see where the people went wrong, logically. Were you all inherently born with a knowledge of the economic world, understanding suddenly or immediately that the free-market is the best way to organize such a vast number of people and resources? You woke up at age 20 and went, duh!? No. You either looked for the information or somebody presented it to you.
So, maybe the way you could help them is by not attacking their beliefs because they are self-negating, but instead explain to them how and why they do not make sense, and to let them know there is a better way, a better ideal of what is wrong with what is currently going on and that this ideal, unlike their own, wouldn't out of necessity lead right back to the current system or something similar.
Amelia Vreeland:I don't know how you are supposed to help them.
Enter them into a entrepreneurship based reality tv program, where marxists, anarchists, leninists and trotskyites compete to start up & successfully run a small business for more than just a few days in order to win free goods for their proletariat comrades.
There is also the possibility of a sequel - which, should a miracle occur and one of the contestants actually succeed, the show will focus on the redistribution of wealth. Will the participant give up their worldly goods they worked hard for, to total strangers? Or will they heaven forbid, be selfish?
In all seriousness though, how does someone get rid of envy?
Amelia Vreeland:I sent my sympathies and they were appreciative because they are humans and like to know that there are people that care when bad things happen.
Did they know you were an anarcho-capitalist? Do you think that knowledge would change the way they reacted to your sympathies?
Amelia Vreeland:Were you all inherently born with a knowledge of the economic world, understanding suddenly or immediately that the free-market is the best way to organize such a vast number of people and resources? You woke up at age 20 and went, duh!? No. You either looked for the information or somebody presented it to you.
I was on the route to syndicalism through Chomsky. But then Ron Paul came alone. My first exposure to capitalism really, yeww. That was all it took. I'd never been shown an alternative. He oozes integrity, honesty and principles. Ask these guys what they think of Ron Paul.
Amelia Vreeland:So, maybe the way you could help them is by not attacking their beliefs because they are self-negating, but instead explain to them how and why they do not make sense, and to let them know there is a better way, a better ideal of what is wrong with what is currently going on and that this ideal, unlike their own, wouldn't out of necessity lead right back to the current system or something similar.
I tried a while back. Over at revleft. A fair few of us here did. I made a few threads, about the Philosophy of Self Ownership and Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature, looking for responses. The responses were dire, so I didn't bother at all and instead had some fun in their forum chat. Pretty fun, "hey comrade" lol.. then you ask them about the minimum wage, would you raise it to $50 an hour? No? Why not?
Haha:
http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/8834/227541.aspx
Amelia Vreeland:"Of course your support counts for something, it means a lot to us going through this. I would love to explain an anarchist collective, it is simply a group of people working and/or living together where decisions are made by consensus and there are no fixed roles or leaders. It is based on mutual aid, voluntary association and respect. There is more and the fact we are anarchists mean we share some basic political outlooks but unlike communists we do have a dogma, single text or even agree on all that much. There is the freedom of the individual in a supportive community.
I don't see anything really controversial about this email. They are at least for voluntary association. Now I would hope they take that to its logical conclusion of free trade and buying / selling which implies a system of private property. What I can't agree with is the destruction of property and I have some hesitation over protesting. They might be wrong on economics but at least these people propound voluntary cooperation.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Conza88:I tried a while back. Over at revleft. A fair few of us here did. I made a few threads, about the Philosophy of Self Ownership and Egalitarianism as a Revolt Against Nature, looking for responses. The responses were dire, so I didn't bother at all and instead had some fun in their forum chat. Pretty fun, "hey comrade" lol.. then you ask them about the minimum wage, would you raise it to $50 an hour? No? Why not?
That was so much fun. Like I said I...love...debating...Marxists. Actual Marxists, not political dark matter socialists who aren't Marxists and are Socialists simply because they think something is wrong.
The Facade of Class Struggle
Haha. This was friggin' hilarious! Thank you.
Yeah. Well, I had mentioned to them, I said...I don't what you mean by anarchist collective, please explain. If you are against capitalism, I think we should discuss this and see where our differences occur. Have you ever heard of the Mises Institute? And then sent me the above reply. They didn't address the capitalism thing at all, which could mean they don't want to argue with me, could mean they really don't care either way.
Yeah. A lot of people got woken up through Ron Paul. I just have to keep trying to get people to understand, anyway, even if nobody else wants to. I mean, I called the state and asked them to steal some of your money and give it to me, since you wouldn't voluntaryily help me help these people see the way, but then they said they weren't interested. I told them that was irrelevant because I needed it, and they had no choice but to agree. So, expect an extra $50 taken out of your income tax this week.
:)
Amelia Vreeland:Yeah. Well, I had mentioned to them, I said...I don't what you mean by anarchist collective, please explain. If you are against capitalism, I think we should discuss this and see where our differences occur. Have you ever heard of the Mises Institute? And then sent me the above reply. They didn't address the capitalism thing at all, which could mean they don't want to argue with me, could mean they really don't care either way.
These guys/gals are probably Bakuninites or maybe Kroptkinites [?] hence the strong distaste for Marxism. Its actually kind of funny, if you read Marx's work 'After the Revolution' he calls Bakunin a 'school boy'. A rather stinging 19th century insult. Then again maybe they are Chomskites, that is certainly all the rage with dysfunctional youth, I have yet to discover the reasoning behind it though. Maybe because of his critique on the Iraq conflict.
"Buffy the Vampire Slayer DVDs"
O man! Is this the ultimate violation of property rights in the history of the state? I mean, I know taxes are theft but now they are just gonna take our Buffy DVD's? Preposterous!!!
When I get home I'm hiding my Firefly DVD box set in the vent... don't tread on me!
I here you get life in Prison for having the Angel series.