Please, grow up.
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Democracy for Breakfast:Your everyday person will not be up to such a task if finding a job is not easy.
No, they won't. Because they have been domesticated. Like a declawed house cat.
Me? Sorry I just got irritated. I apologize for language. Just trying to illustrate the absurdity
Criminals, there ought to be a law.
Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more. Bon Scott.
Saan: Me? Sorry I just got irritated. I apologize for language. Just trying to illustrate the absurdity
no, not you. click on the "replied on" link beside any name, in this case Jon's, to find out which post a person responded to.
I knew that. I've had a beer. Going to bed soon before the alcohol takes over. Thanks wilderness.
The OP.
Saan: Southern:but you can always join the military. You can always rob the local 7-11 too. Join up today kids, kill some some sand niggers and get free ride to college. Come on really, here.
Southern:but you can always join the military.
You can always rob the local 7-11 too. Join up today kids, kill some some sand niggers and get free ride to college. Come on really, here.
Already went through this with liberty student and some others. I appologize for offending anyone, but in a world where we all use the state and all it provides through taxes it is an option. And ttour statement is not neccesarially accurate and in most cases unfair. The most anyone can say is that those who serve in the military are more immoral than most here, but none of us are saints and we all in violation in one way or another of libertarian ideals. Again I appologize I did not think that my post was inappropriate.
Well, working for free is better then not working at all.
I recently had success in this, I just found the job I wanted in the industry I liked.... I e-mailed the owner of a business with my resume and a thought out cover letter and made it clear that I was willing to work for free. Once I had made the offer they couldn't refuse I worked above and beyond and created enough work for myself that they realised if I left a lot of things that are running smoothly would turn chaotic or stop completley. The idea is to infiltrate and then get so involved that you become difficult to replace with any haste. So, after 1-2 months of free labour I was hired into a full-time paid position.
It may suck not making income to pay the bills, but your not helping yourself by sitting around, you can continue to job hunt while building real world expierence.
Southern: The most anyone can say is that those who serve in the military are more immoral than most her...,
The most anyone can say is that those who serve in the military are more immoral than most her...,
The most anyone can say... say? say? say? wtf?
i give this post a for utter failure to realize reality. unless training to kill somebody you never had a quarrel with cause some guy with stars or so-called commander in chief dictated you too and that's ones cup of spiked tea... please.
In Houston(One of the cheapest places to live) they are hiring american petroleum engineer's right out of college. To start they are offering between 65-75k a year. They are having to import foreigners as there is not enough domestic engineers available.
Look at the market and see what is it demand. If you find something that looks interesting peruse it. Engineering in general in the US is still in high Demand. Amidst the crappy recession IT un-employment was something like <4%.
Despite what society tells you there is no such thing as that one perfect dream job that you are destined by fate and the alignment of the planets. Instead you likely have a skillset that is applicable across many sectors/industries/ and career paths. Expand on your skillset and you may find that you can apply it to several areas. GL!
wilderness: Southern: The most anyone can say is that those who serve in the military are more immoral than most her..., The most anyone can say... say? say? say? wtf? i give this post a for utter failure to realize reality. unless training to kill somebody you never had a quarrel with cause some guy with stars or so-called commander in chief dictated you too and that's ones cup of spiked tea... please.
Easy now. Once again the military is being painted with one brush. That does not reflect reality. Like I said before there are jobs and branches where you are not turned into trained killers.
So I can understand the distinction between volunteering your support for the military and supporting the military through taxes (<--involuntary). But paying to kill someone (even against your will) and being paid to kill someone are just shades of gray. But how many of us have actively resisted paying the government. Again another shade of gray. You can pay all the lip service you want to ideals but we would rather live and pay the killers than be killed yourself. So, im not saying i dissagree with the ideal but I think we need to be honest about our place in the scheme of things.
Southern:Easy now. Once again the military is being painted with one brush. That does not reflect reality. Like I said before there are jobs and branches where you are not turned into trained killers.
But their primary roles are to support the trained killers. Seems to me a distinction without meaningful difference...
============================
David Z
"The issue is always the same, the government or the market. There is no third solution."
David Z: Southern:Easy now. Once again the military is being painted with one brush. That does not reflect reality. Like I said before there are jobs and branches where you are not turned into trained killers. But their primary roles are to support the trained killers. Seems to me a distinction without meaningful difference...
Very true and our primary role is the pay for it all.
and yet I involuntarily do such and military personal and you are advocating it is ok - join - volunteer. big difference. no shade of gray that's merely your excuse. even support personal go through boot camp cause they are ALL soldiers given preparation to initiate physical aggression. that's a non-argument. i know of some military personal that have gotten out of the military and realized what they had gravely done. i say better late than never.
my great grandfather was in WW1 and being Italian fought in North Africa. he came back and told his family and this has been passed down to us with specific actions taken by each generation since then heeding his words, "Do not ever go to war. It is terrible."
WW1 was the 'War to End All Wars' - right? The so-called 'Great War'. A huge terrible war of magnified disaster. When will people learn from those that have been in war.
If your going to take taxpayer money join Peace Corps instead. You get:
wilderness: my great grandfather was in WW1 and being Italian fought in North Africa. he came back and told his family and this has been passed down to us with specific actions taken by each generation since then heeding his words, "Do not ever go to war. It is terrible." WW1 was the 'War to End All Wars' - right? The so-called 'Great War'. A huge terrible war of magnified disaster. When will people learn from those that have been in war.
I have not glorified war or justified the war we are in. My point was that we are all part of the system and in one way or another, just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger. Then good point was made about the distinction between being an volunteer soldier and an involuntary tax payer. However, we all make the choice to pay and continue to live the good life while another pays in our stead. We make the choice to trade someone elses life for our freedom. Only those who refuse to make that choice can take the moral high ground, but I cant and most here cant either. The chain of responsibility does not stop just because you declare that the choices given to you are harm someone else or be harmed yourself. That is why I say we are all just as guilty of murder if all military are guilty. I am not trying to point the finger at everyone and declare hypocracy but I do ask that you be a little more moderate about denouncing others. I see the world as shades of grey, if you dont then we wont see eye to eye.
Southern:My point was that we are all part of the system and in one way or another, just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger.
No, we're not. Because I would never pull the trigger. I draw the line at subjecting myself to citizenship. I do not support war, I do not vote for war, and I will never go to war if drafted. I will never drop a bomb on someone, or load a bomb onto a plane, nor service a plane that delivers bombs.
You might not see the difference but I do. There is a point where the state goes too far. I can handle its immorality against me to a certain point. But I will not allow it to use me to inflict aggression on others.
If soldiers laid down their arms tomorrow, the state could not fight wars. But because they willingly participate, the state can continue with its violence.
The state doesn't go to war because I pay taxes any more than a PDA would go to war because I pay a subscription fee. It goes to war because there are people willing to kill for money and people willing to apologize for it.
Southern: My point was that we are all part of the system and in one way or another, just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger.
My point was that we are all part of the system and in one way or another, just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger.
and yet lots of people don't pull the trigger and don't want to. meanwhile some people do and you are advocating that they should volunteer to do it as opposed to NOT volunteer.
Southern: Then good point was made about the distinction between being an volunteer soldier and an involuntary tax payer. However, we all make the choice to pay and continue to live the good life while another pays in our stead.
Then good point was made about the distinction between being an volunteer soldier and an involuntary tax payer. However, we all make the choice to pay and continue to live the good life while another pays in our stead.
I don't think you understand what volunteer and not-volunteer means.
Southern: We make the choice to trade someone elses life for our freedom.
We make the choice to trade someone elses life for our freedom.
that's not true.
Southern: Only those who refuse to make that choice can take the moral high ground, but I cant and most here cant either.
Only those who refuse to make that choice can take the moral high ground, but I cant and most here cant either.
and then you take the next step and advocate that a person ought to volunteer in order to be dictated to pull the trigger on who knows, some stranger somewhere I venture?
Southern: The chain of responsibility does not stop just because you declare that the choices given to you are harm someone else or be harmed yourself.
The chain of responsibility does not stop just because you declare that the choices given to you are harm someone else or be harmed yourself.
I never encountered that choice. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Southern: That is why I say we are all just as guilty of murder if all military are guilty.
That is why I say we are all just as guilty of murder if all military are guilty.
that's impossible human action. for when I don't pull the trigger and advocate not pulling the trigger - you say I pull the trigger. whatever dude. i know when it's time to move on. A is not-A. illogical. To trivialize the quality between one thing and another is deceptive to say the least.
Southern: I am not trying to point the finger at everyone and declare hypocracy but I do ask that you be a little more moderate about denouncing others. I see the world as shades of grey, if you dont then we wont see eye to eye.
I am not trying to point the finger at everyone and declare hypocracy but I do ask that you be a little more moderate about denouncing others. I see the world as shades of grey, if you dont then we wont see eye to eye.
and yet you finish this post that is it possible that "we won't see eye to eye"... which it is? we are the same eye or we are not.
I humbly bow out of this dialogue. I don't think this necessarily deliberates a continuance.
good day sir
liberty student:I would never pull the trigger. I draw the line at subjecting myself to citizenship. I do not support war, I do not vote for war, and I will never go to war if drafted. I will never drop a bomb on someone, or load a bomb onto a plane, nor service a plane that delivers bombs.
Lol, awesome we found something in common. Btw what about the airman who unclogs the toilet used by the pilot who drops the bombs.
(Just trying to lighten the mood a little)
liberty student:You might not see the difference but I do. There is a point where the state goes too far. I can handle its immorality against me to a certain point. But I will not allow it to use me to inflict aggression on others.
I do see the diffrence and have even admitted that you can accuse some who do the systems dirty work to be more responsible for the states sins; others less. But I dont see how you can say the state uses you and I for non aggressive things but not for aggressive things. The state uses us for all things. Your labor, my labor, everyones labor is the life blood of the state. Without it the state is incapable of doing anything. It seems like you have said it is okay if the state takes money from you and pays other people to do immoral things but you draw the line when they try to force you to do something immoral directly. I hope that I would have the guts to do the same, but both seem immoral to me. Granted, one worse than the other but both complicit none the less.
liberty student:The state doesn't go to war because I pay taxes any more than a PDA would go to war because I pay a subscription fee. It goes to war because there are people willing to kill for money and people willing to apologize for it.
I think the opposite would be true. War is impossible without money. Unless we create the "new libertarian man" there will always be those who are willing to kill for money.
Southern:But I dont see how you can say the state uses you and I for non aggressive things but not for aggressive things.
I've argued what you are trying to argue. The problem is, you're saying the state can make me guilty of something by association.
Southern:It seems like you have said it is okay if the state takes money from you and pays other people to do immoral things but you draw the line when they try to force you to do something immoral directly.
That is exactly what I am saying. Paying taxes is not the same as murdering.
Southern:Granted, one worse than the other but both complicit none the less.
Again, I have argued the same thing you are trying to argue. But it isn't reflective of individualism. You might as well make the case that I slaughtered (or condone slaughtering) the North American Indians because I benefit off of land that only they populated at one time.
Southern:I think the opposite would be true. War is impossible without money. Unless we create the "new libertarian man" there will always be those who are willing to kill for money.
There will always be money. The question is, what will men use it for? The incentives to commit large scale armed aggression, to channel funding into the creation of WMDs like nukes, are something states do. Not something private individuals do, unless we watch too many spy fantasy movies with sinister evil cabals headed by bald rich guys with pet shaved cats.
Southern:(Just trying to lighten the mood a little)
I'm cool. I wish someone hadn't dredged this up again, because the conversation always gets heated.
I understand where you are coming from. Been there. Maybe still there. It is hard to reconcile libertarian ethics with the implications of staying connected to institutions of violence.
wilderness: Southern: My point was that we are all part of the system and in one way or another, just as guilty as the one who pulls the trigger. and yet lots of people don't pull the trigger and don't want to. meanwhile some people do and you are advocating that they should volunteer to do it as opposed to NOT volunteer.
I have never advocated "pulling the trigger". I have advocated joining the military in certain instances. It is others who have equated every job in the military with "pulling the trigger". My contention is that if they are guilty of "pulling the trigger" by being an enabler of those who do it in reality then everyone who supports the military through their taxes is just as guilty. The counter point is that the tax payer is not because he is forced to pay taxes. In other words given the choice to pay his taxes or be fined, jailed, or (if he resists enough) killed. That is the tax payers choice given to him by the state. We as tax payers choose our nice comfortable lives knowing that we support an injust war where people are being killed.
wilderness: Southern: Then good point was made about the distinction between being an volunteer soldier and an involuntary tax payer. However, we all make the choice to pay and continue to live the good life while another pays in our stead. I don't think you understand what volunteer and not-volunteer means.
I never said that taxpayers are given the choice to pay thier taxes voluntarily. I said they are given a choice to pay or suffer the consequences and we choose our own well being. This choice results in bad things happening on the other side of the world.
wilderness: Southern: Only those who refuse to make that choice can take the moral high ground, but I cant and most here cant either. and then you take the next step and advocate that a person ought to volunteer in order to be dictated to pull the trigger on who knows, some stranger somewhere I venture?
I didnt. I have never advocated "pulling the trigger". You say this because, apparently, you equate all military service with pulling the trigger. Which is not true. Only some are. The other can only be guilty of enabling the killers to do so. And if that the case.... read above.
wilderness: Southern: The chain of responsibility does not stop just because you declare that the choices given to you are harm someone else or be harmed yourself. I never encountered that choice. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Unless you or I have refused to pay taxes we are presented that choice everyday of our lives.
wilderness: Southern: That is why I say we are all just as guilty of murder if all military are guilty. that's impossible human action. for when I don't pull the trigger and advocate not pulling the trigger - you say I pull the trigger. whatever dude. i know when it's time to move on. A is not-A. illogical. To trivialize the quality between one thing and another is deceptive to say the least.
I never said that tax payers literaly "pull the trigger". Only that we share the responsibility for anyone that our government kills.
wilderness: Southern: I am not trying to point the finger at everyone and declare hypocracy but I do ask that you be a little more moderate about denouncing others. I see the world as shades of grey, if you dont then we wont see eye to eye. and yet you finish this post that is it possible that "we won't see eye to eye"... which it is? we are the same eye or we are not. I humbly bow out of this dialogue. I don't think this necessarily deliberates a continuance. good day sir
Well, I did enjoy the conversation. It seems that I was right that we might not see eye to eye. But I'm ok with that.
And that is really where I stand and where I'm coming from. Reconciling the realities of the world with how I would like to be as well as with all the everyone else that I associate with everyday.
Just to clarify, the points I was making above is not my point of veiw. I was simply trying to illistrate how the guilt by association that is used against those who have state jobs is a slipery slope and that an arguement can be made against each and everyone of us. I was just hoping that it might help some temper the inflametory language a little. In particular when it comes to those who live mind and body in the real world. Not asking anyone to compromise their values, though.
Jon Irenicus: Please, grow up.
I noticed you sometimes have a tendency to talk down to people, I guess I'm no different.
My point was, your everyday person, isn't exposed to such information as we are. They don't get as much advice on finding work as we do. If jobs aren't as accessible, then the majority of the job market will tank since the majority has little motivation to find work if all they know is they are being turned down left and right.
The division of labour is supposed to adapt to everyone, but when there's such distortions and inequality the majority group loses out. What I will never understand is how this economy will recover when people start producing and reinvesting again, and that is the division of labor's expectation. If there's no jobs, and they are really hard to find, how the hell are they supposed to live up to that expectation? Its a double negative. Mind as well just be fucked.
Democracy for Breakfast:If jobs aren't as accessible, then the majority of the job market will tank since the majority has little motivation to find work if all they know is they are being turned down left and right.
They have lots of motivation to find work. The problem is, the incentives are stacked against them finding work.
Democracy for Breakfast:The division of labour is supposed to adapt to everyone, but when there's such distortions and inequality the majority group loses out. What I will never understand is how this economy will recover when people start producing and reinvesting again, and that is the division of labor's expectation. If there's no jobs, and they are really hard to find, how the hell are they supposed to live up to that expectation?
The division of labor and the market are stronger in the long run than the state distortions. The economy will recover when the state gets out of the way, allows the malinvestments to be purged (insolvent firms, bad debt liquidated). When that happens, people will start rebuilding the capital base, entrepreneurs will start engaging in risk again, jobs will be created, and the cycle will start again.
I have seen worse times than these. I expect it to get much worse. But right now, it is not that bad. The thing you can worry about, is not the majority, but your own situation. If you need work, find it. Even if it pays little, or isn't fun. Once you start (anything in life) opportunities open up for you. The trick is always to get your foot in the door, or in some cases, your ass off the sofa.