Reading Michael Scheur's Imperial Hubris at the moment. Combined that with Rothbard and I now understand that Michael Moore was right to compare the resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq to the American revolutionaries. They're obviously not the same, but they're both rebelling against a stronger occupying power brutalizing the people.
but Al-Qaeda want to be the ones brutalizing people. they would surely brutalize you if you were a resident of that piece of earth.
to some extent the yanks wanted to be the brutalizers too, but my personal subjective judgement call, is that one is worse than the other.
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
How were the british brutalizing americans?
scineram:How were the british brutalizing americans?
Rothbard explains it here:
"The central grievance of the American rebels was the taxing power: the systematic plunder of their property by the British government. Whether it was the tax on stamps, or the tax on imports, or finally the tax on imported tea, taxation was central. The slogan "no taxation without representation" was misleading; in the last analysis, we didn’t want "representation" in Parliament; we wanted not to be taxed by Great Britain. The other grievances, such as opposition to general search warrants, or to overriding of the ancient Anglo-Saxon principle of trial by jury, were critical because they involved the power to search merchants’ properties for goods that had avoided payment of the customs taxes, that is for "smuggled" goods, and trial by jury was vital because no American jury would ever convict such smugglers."
nirgrahamUK: but Al-Qaeda want to be the ones brutalizing people.
but Al-Qaeda want to be the ones brutalizing people.
Rothbard writes: "My own view of war can be put simply: a just war exists when a people tries to ward off the threat of coercive domination by another people, or to overthrow an already-existing domination."
Aren't al-Qaeda (and other "terrorist" groups like them) merely trying to overthrow an existing domination? I'm not arguing that they are "better" than the revolutionaries - I think they're both human beings, and therefore capable of being equally bad. Even libertarians with power are dangerous individuals.
Sukrit Sabhlok:merely
no.
in point of fact, they brutalize what civilians they can,(murders, destruction of schools, intimidation of women) even as they fight against The Great Satan
That is the same Washington does to Nebraskans today. So unless he connects american troops in Afghanistan to federal domination of Nebraska, he is just bullshitting.
He does, don't you know Rothbard is an anarchist that hates the state?. That includes the American one.
I was talking about Moore's comparison.
lol, then we agree, hurray!.
that doesn't happen often
Shouldn`t conflate Al Qaeda with the resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq.
nirgrahamUK: Sukrit Sabhlok:merely no. in point of fact, they brutalize what civilians they can,(murders, destruction of schools, intimidation of women) even as they fight against The Great Satan
ok
Al Qaeda does not exist.
It's an idea based on a very weak premise that there is a linked network of international terror - a government-sponsored conspiracy theory. If you are a skeptic and believe in evidence, you will not find much evidence for Al Qaeda. I am sorry.
Even people closest to bin Laden and turncoats to him have no idea about the Kenyan embassy blasts or other such isolated incidents which are mystically tagged to this evil international conspiracy network. The remnants of mujahideen which fought in the Soviet-Afghan wars have absolutely no organization whatsoever.
Tony Blair once even foolishly thought that Chechens are also part of this international Islamic terror network, when Chechens are just anti-Russian dissidents and have absolutely no connection to Islamists in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.
Even the people involved in 9/11 attacks were sons of wealthy and secular Arab families, several of whom lived and studied in the West. They hardly strike me as Islamic fundamentalists. I seriously think it is more likely that a group of brilliant aeronautical engineers and pilots simply got frustrated with US/Israel policies and their own life, and took out their hatred on this long-sketched out plan to do this. None of them strike me as people with religious motivation, so much as just sporadically violent youth. I doubt they had any connection to some international terror organization.
Prateek Sanjay:Even the people involved in 9/11 attacks were sons of wealthy and secular Arab families, several of whom lived and studied in the West. They hardly strike me as Islamic fundamentalists.
maybe arguing from ignorance here?
Mohamed Atta - well-educated Egyptian from a wealthy family, who studied in Germany, and lived in a westernized urbanized surrounding in a metropolitan part of Egypt.
Marwan al-Shehhi - Lived in Germany as well, not known to have heavily strong religious inclinations
Hani Hanjour - born to rich family, lived in Arizona and Florida
Ziad Jarrah - born in Lebanon, which is full of nominal Muslims who live secular lifestyles, and his family was reported be exactly that
Just of the top of my head. What I see here is simply a case of anti-US anti-Israeli youth rather than some case of a Muslim jihadi cause. They grew up in secularized western surroundings, and it was just their anger and anguish at Palestine and other such issues which pushed them to do it. It doesn't necessarilly admit of some internationalist Islamic conspiracy.
Sukrit Sabhlok:we didn’t want "representation" in Parliament; we wanted not to be taxed by Great Britain.
Prateek Sanjay:Mohamed Atta - well-educated Egyptian from a wealthy family, who studied in Germany, and lived in a westernized urbanized surrounding in a metropolitan part of Egypt.
in Hamburg, began to regularly attend Al-Quds Mosque.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Quds_Mosque_Hamburg
you think because his family had westernised therefore he wouldnt find an ugly sect of islam to be attractive?
Have you not met people who are 'born agains' ?
nirgrahamUK:in point of fact, they brutalize what civilians they can,(murders, destruction of schools, intimidation of women) even as they fight against The Great Satan
They are as ruthless as uncle sam. I have seen this. The power drill is a favorite tool of theirs.
Criminals, there ought to be a law.
Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more. Bon Scott.
Prateek Sanjay:Al Qaeda does not exist.
They are the old mujahadeen and some new recruits. They exist. They aren't a dire threat to our way of life though.
nirgrahamUK:to some extent the yanks wanted to be the brutalizers too, but my personal subjective judgement call, is that one is worse than the other.
Michael Moore obviously fails grieviously in logical reasoning. The American revolutionaries wanted to throw off the weight of tyranny and unjust taxes. Al Qaeda wants to overthrow the philosophy and personal liberty so they can be dictators. They use our "occupation" of their countries as an excuse to fight us. First, they declared war on us, and second our "occupation" is justified historically. We our their conquerors. I do want to point out to say that according to U.S. law we are in a illegal war because Congress did not explicitly declare war.
sam.burton:The American revolutionaries wanted to throw off the weight of tyranny and unjust taxes.
Mythology. The Hamiltonians wanted to establish their own empire without a King.
sam.burton:Al Qaeda wants to overthrow the philosophy and personal liberty so they can be dictators.
Who is Al Qaeda?
sam.burton:They use our "occupation" of their countries as an excuse to fight us.
Uhm....
sam.burton:First, they declared war on us, and second our "occupation" is justified historically.
What?
sam.burton:I do want to point out to say that according to U.S. law we are in a illegal war because Congress did not explicitly declare war.
Any war of aggression is immoral. The US has never been in a defensive war in the 20th century.
Hmm...having taken extensive courses in American history in college I must say I disagree with you liberty_student. In fact ,the Hamiltonian comment sounds like a unfounded conspiracy theory. Prove me wrong with credible sources please. :)
Al Qaeda...did I spell that wrong or are you just being a hard case?
As with your other comments please explain yourself. I cannot comment on one word responses.
War being immoral or moral is subject to debate. Both sides of the argument can be logically defended. Ultimately, it ends on personal conviction.
Please explain "The US has never been in a defensive war in the 20th century". Making a statement is rather useless when by itself.
sam.burton:Hmm...having taken extensive courses in American history in college I must say I disagree with you liberty_student. In fact ,the Hamiltonian comment sounds like a unfounded conspiracy theory. Prove me wrong with credible sources please. :)
How about Thomas Woods and Tom DiLorenzo? I'm quite certain they would both argue that the Articles of Confederation were superior to the Constitution. Are you familiar with DiLorenzo's work on Hamilton?
sam.burton:Al Qaeda...did I spell that wrong or are you just being a hard case?
No, I want to know. Who is Al Qaeda? Who is in it? Who leads it? Who funds it? Where are they?
sam.burton:War being immoral or moral is subject to debate.
No it isn't. Aggression is immoral.
sam.burton:Both sides of the argument can be logically defended.
The only way to logically [sic] defend aggression, is to argue against order, peace and individualism. I'm pretty sure you will trap yourself in a performative contradiction if you try.
sam.burton:Please explain "The US has never been in a defensive war in the 20th century".
It should be apparent. None of the wars the US were in during the 20th century were defensive. They were all wars of aggression.
The idea of "Al-Qaeda" as some international network of terror is absolutely ridiculous. Its just a nice excuse for the US or any other country to use anytime they want to interevene in other countries affairs and cause more pain and death. Hey we need a reason to go to Somalia...Al-QAEDA is over there! Hey we need to go to Pakistan, HEY LOOK ITS AL-QAEDA! No one ever heard of anything called Al-Qaeda until after 9/11, why? because it doesn't exist as a group. Are there rebel fighters and miscreants around the world who have in common the hatred of imperialist powers? Yes of course.
The "taliban" are all severely poor tribesmen- they don't give a godamn about the "American way of life" or American culture, and they certainly don't hate us "For our freedoms" or some nonsense like that. The idea that they want to control the entire globe is the funniest thing I've ever heard, and if you take it seriously you have no critical thinking skills- they just want everyone to leave them alone and do their thing. There is no reason for all the american intervention around the world- there is no just reason for the occupation of ANY country by the US. Occupying afghanistan because the taliban had bin laden is nonsense- Bin Laden didn't carry out the attacks, whoever controlled the planes did, and they're dead now.
For some reason no one ever makes the other comparison- if a village in afghanistan is destroyed by American airstrikes- is it ok to invade and occupy the hometown of the American who gave the go-ahead for the airstrike?
Marko: Shouldn`t conflate Al Qaeda with the resistance in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Meh. Al Qaeda is an American created term used for ideologically similar but unaffiliated groups and includes whoever Washintgon wants it to include at that moment.
Peace
just because its an excuse doesn't mean its not real. a good portion of your text is made up of non-sequitusr. you make lots of statements i agree with, particularly when you stick to facts, and then you launch of to dubious conclusions from them....
unfortunately some of your facts are incorrect also. 'Al Qaeda' terrorist organisation affiliated with Bin Laden were 'heard about' prior to 9/11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Islamic_Front
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
Nir, are you still believing the TV?
Cavemen from Afghanistan coming to take away your guitar and your blue jeans?
my roots are in the middle east. 9/11 wasn't the first time I heard of the lunatic islamic fringe, unlike for many other people.
We won't know if they are terrorist or revolutionary heroes until the winners write the history later. If the colonist lost the war I'm sure the Brits would have called them terrorist (or whatever word they used back then).
A cult is a religion with no political power. - Tom Wolfe
Life without music would be an error. - Nietzsche
We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. - Edward R. Morrow
Prateek Sanjay: Al Qaeda does not exist. It's an idea based on a very weak premise that there is a linked network of international terror - a government-sponsored conspiracy theory. If you are a skeptic and believe in evidence, you will not find much evidence for Al Qaeda. I am sorry. Even people closest to bin Laden and turncoats to him have no idea about the Kenyan embassy blasts or other such isolated incidents which are mystically tagged to this evil international conspiracy network. The remnants of mujahideen which fought in the Soviet-Afghan wars have absolutely no organization whatsoever. Tony Blair once even foolishly thought that Chechens are also part of this international Islamic terror network, when Chechens are just anti-Russian dissidents and have absolutely no connection to Islamists in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Even the people involved in 9/11 attacks were sons of wealthy and secular Arab families, several of whom lived and studied in the West. They hardly strike me as Islamic fundamentalists. I seriously think it is more likely that a group of brilliant aeronautical engineers and pilots simply got frustrated with US/Israel policies and their own life, and took out their hatred on this long-sketched out plan to do this. None of them strike me as people with religious motivation, so much as just sporadically violent youth. I doubt they had any connection to some international terror organization.
"Al Qaeda does not exist." Yes. I believe the term is actually Arabic for "toilet".
AQ is just another convenient CIA created bogeyman to focus hate on Muslims- effectively a brand new "Emmanuel Goldstein" to replace the failed Russian state bogeymen and to ensure the continued massive funding for the US military state.
"Even the people involved in 9/11 attacks were sons of wealthy and secular Arab families, several of whom lived and studied in the West."
There were no arabs flying planes into the Pentagon or the WTC complex on 911,wealthy or otherwise, simply because no planes flew into buildings that day.
All "evidence of planes flying into buildings, including network and cable TV "live" footage, was faked via crude computer animations, as was all evidence of arab hijackers etc., even the flight records for the alleged planes.
You bin had .Have a nice day!
For more information about onebornfree, please see profile.[ i.e. click on forum name "onebornfree"].
nirgrahamUK:my roots are in the middle east.
So you're familiar with the lunatic islamists, the american interventionists and the zionist fascists.
nirgrahamUK:9/11 wasn't the first time I heard of the lunatic islamic fringe, unlike for many other people.
Nor I.
haha, i see what you did there
onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:All "evidence of planes flying into buildings, including network and cable TV "live" footage, was faked via crude computer animations, as was all evidence of arab hijackers etc., even the flight records for the alleged planes.
Thus we came full circle.
Well, the American Revolutionaries never hijacked a civilian airline and crashed it into a British skyscraper, killing everybody onboard.
That's a bit of a difference.....
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
liberty student. Let me read up on what ou said about Hamilton. :) I am open minded.AS with war being immoral and your idea that I'll entrap myself. I think the basis of your logic will make any argument from me entrapment. You believe that anything that is against individualism, etc is immoral. With that in mind you give a very limited definition in which you define your terms/arguments. With that in mind, Ill give an alternate defintion and argue from there. There's more than one way to skin a cat.
sam.burton:Hmm...having taken extensive courses in American history in college I must say I disagree with you liberty_student.
lol-i-pop
on Hamilton:
- at the Constitution Convention he brought up how the states shouldn't have sovereignty and the federal "governor" (his term; which became known as President thus his concept wasn't accepted) and senators should serve for a lifetime. states not having sovereignty thus federal government would have absolute control over entire territory.
- at first Hamilton wanted the "president" to be a king, but after some other states submitted their plan he pulled back to "governor".
obviously his ambitions were not picked up. now I've heard rumors, but I'm not sure if this is true or not. I've heard that he wanted to take an army while John Adams was President and establish an American Empire to the tip of South America and this was if not the main reason, but a reason John Adams dissolved the army. It had been formed for a war happening at the time, but again, I'm not even sure what war it was.
the first two comments I made I've confirmed to be true. that last one about the army, I'm not readily sure.
JonBostwick: sam.burton:Hmm...having taken extensive courses in American history in college I must say I disagree with you liberty_student. lol-i-pop
don't ask me why, but when i read that immediately Shirley Temple singing "Good ship Lolipop" popped into my head...
and then it fit my perspective on what you responded to, not so much what you said, what you responded to...
all in good fun