DrKrbyLuv: Knight_of_BAAWA wrote: The fed isn't exactly private. It's a federally-mandated cartel of quasi-federal banks. Wow...is this an Austrian theory or your own personal misconception?
Knight_of_BAAWA wrote:
The fed isn't exactly private. It's a federally-mandated cartel of quasi-federal banks.
Wow...is this an Austrian theory or your own personal misconception?
tomozope:Ok, lets go with the austrian idea of getting rid of all the central banks. Now what? We are still going to be forced
Now what?
We are still going to be forced
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Look, money-as-debt crank: you're in over your head.
Knight_of_BAAWA:Look, money-as-debt crank: you're in over your head.
Then tell me what your solution is since I'm in way over my head?
Speaking on behalf of Tomozope, "BAAWA, you still dodn't get it, money IS debt, debt IS desth, government CAN save us, we're ALL gonna die if we don't do something fast, end the fed now or run for the hills while you still can. Sadly those hills are also owned by the banks due to foreclosures."
We are the soldiers for righteousnessAnd we are not sent here by the politicians you drink with - L. Dube, rip
tomozope:Then tell me what your solution is since I'm in way over my head?
tomozope: nirgrahamUK: my grandmother is debt free. explain this conundrum..... Simple, she has captured someone else's borrowed money.
nirgrahamUK: my grandmother is debt free. explain this conundrum.....
my grandmother is debt free. explain this conundrum.....
Simple, she has captured someone else's borrowed money.
Oh no, your grandmother stole other people's debt money because she didn't produce enough wealth money.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
Tomozope I'd like to lend you some money.
BUHAHAHAHAHA!
filc: tomozope: filc: No it doesn't. Money does not need to be created at all. If that statement is true then how would new money get put into circulation because money is not just "out there". Money is a manmade product that has to be manufactured. Wrong. This is a baseless assertion. It's not reality however. Units of exchange are discovered on the market on their own. How do we put banana's into circulation? Banana's are not just "out there". People acquire banana's on the market. It's not for us to dictate the most efficient way for them to purchase banana's and it's not for us to dictate how many banana's they should have. To assume this is to assume to have the knowledge of the needs of every man women child on the planet. I doubt you are the omniscient being the prophets told us about. But you are to be sure a modern mystic.
tomozope: filc: No it doesn't. Money does not need to be created at all. If that statement is true then how would new money get put into circulation because money is not just "out there". Money is a manmade product that has to be manufactured.
filc: No it doesn't. Money does not need to be created at all.
No it doesn't. Money does not need to be created at all.
If that statement is true then how would new money get put into circulation because money is not just "out there". Money is a manmade product that has to be manufactured.
Wrong.
This is a baseless assertion. It's not reality however. Units of exchange are discovered on the market on their own.
How do we put banana's into circulation? Banana's are not just "out there".
People acquire banana's on the market. It's not for us to dictate the most efficient way for them to purchase banana's and it's not for us to dictate how many banana's they should have. To assume this is to assume to have the knowledge of the needs of every man women child on the planet. I doubt you are the omniscient being the prophets told us about. But you are to be sure a modern mystic.
Units of exchange are discovered on the market on their own.
And the only way those units go into the market and circulate is when somebody (business, person, government, ect...) gets an extention of credit by a private commercial bank.
Bannanas do not circulate as money, and it's true bananas are not just out there. They are grown, harvested and sold. In order for there to be any money to purchase those bananas somebody, somewhere in the system had to go into debt to a private commercial bank in order for that money to exsist. Unless you believe that there is money out there without debt, in that case next statements you'll probably agree with. I have some bananas in my house, and I do not have a banana tree, therefor, that proves that all bananas are not grown on trees. This is exactly why I didn't go deer hunting this year because i decided to purchase all my meat from the grocery store where no animals where harmed for that meat. The grocery store does not have any animals therefor it proves that not all meat comes from animals.
Can you please tell me something more rediculous about our monetary system? "discovered on their own" Maybe the better question is, who told you that lie?
The people are free to purchase as many bananas as they wish just so long as there is bananas to purchase and money to pay for them with.
filc: Tomozope I'd like to lend you some money. BUHAHAHAHAHA!
How much are you willing to loan me? What does this money consist of?
tomozope:Maybe this video series can help you understand how the mechanics of modern money works and why we are having such hard financial times.
I have a handle on how money works. Thank you for the source though.
'Men do not change, they unmask themselves' - Germaine de Stael
Knight_of_BAAWA: Knight_of_BAAWA:Look, money-as-debt crank: you're in over your head. tomozope:Then tell me what your solution is since I'm in way over my head?Eliminate the central bank and fiat currency. Return to a commodity-backed-and-based money system, e.g. gold/silver. Repeal the legal tender laws.
I'm all for elminating the central bank and it needs to be done, but before we do that we have to figure out how all money is going to be put into circulation. There is a lot of really good things about the FED. This video might help to point out a few.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lgN4-EW_zs
Do you realize that the fiat currency in our system does not affect the money supply at all? The money supply does not increase nor decrease with an increase or decrease in the fiat component. We do not have a fiat money system. We have a credit money system with a fiat component.
If you want to return gold/silver how much gold and silver is it going to take? Where is it going to come from? How is it going to be put into circulation?
With an outstanding debt of 57 trillion dollars even if you put 57 trillion dollars of gold/silver into circulation to pay off the debt wouldn't the banks then own all the gold and silver? Now if they loaned it back to us at interest wouldn't we be in the exact same mess we are in right now? An unpayable debt owed to the banking system?
Repeal all legal tender laws? Do you really want a cashless society?
tomozope:Do you realize that the fiat currency in our system does not affect the money supply at all?
Do you realize what you have just stated in this sentence? Currency is not apart of the money supply?
tomozope:The money supply does not increase nor decrease with an increase or decrease in the fiat component.
Do you know what the MZM is?
tomozope:I'm all for elminating the central bank and it needs to be done, but before we do that we have to figure out how all money is going to be put into circulation.
tomozope:Repeal all legal tender laws? Do you really want a cashless society?
Laughing Man:Do you realize what you have just stated in this sentence? Currency is not apart of the money supply?
I never said it wasn't part of the money supply, what I said is that the fiat currency doesn't increase nor decrease our money supply at all. The fiat currency is not the true money in our system. The true money is bank credit. "the actual creation of money ALWAYS involves the extention of credit by a private commericial bank" - Russel L. Munk U.S. Treasury.
http://www.theantechamber.net/VkDocuments/DeptOfTreas/DeptOfTreasPage1.html
In other words, there simply is no money until somebody goes to a bank and gets an extention of credit.
The MZM is "money with zero maturity".
MZM: Money with zero maturity. This measure equals M2 plus all money market funds, minus time deposits. It measures the supply of financial assets redeemable at par on demand.
All of that MZM can only exsist though if somebody, somewhere in the system has gone into debt to a private commericial bank. It's all bank credit (the true money in our system).
Knight_of_BAAWA:We didn't need one before, so why need one now.
Because in the past people were able to monetize their production as a wealth to the people, which currently cannot be done.
Knight_of_BAAWA: tomozope:Repeal all legal tender laws? Do you really want a cashless society?Non sequitur.
I want to hear your answer in detail. Tell me exactly what good repealing all legal tender laws would do?
tomozope: Knight_of_BAAWA: tomozope:Repeal all legal tender laws? Do you really want a cashless society?Non sequitur. I want to hear your answer in detail. Tell me exactly what good repealing all legal tender laws would do?
It does not follow that in the absence of legal tender laws "Cash" would not exist. Do you know what Non Sequitur means?
There is a reason why I asked you what your definition of a "Good" economy is. Now I am goign to explain to why it is relevant.
A "Good" economy is one where individual consumer demands are met and individual ends are realized. An economy that does not deliver goods that people actually want is not an economy but a failure. We are not wealthier by producing things we do not want.
Money itself is a good. It's a market good just like anything else. It is a tangible object subject to the laws of scarcity. As such it applies economization, or economics. In the absence of Legal Tender laws we do not know what Unit of exchange people would resort to. It is not our place to dictate such measures as to what is the best unit of exchange, we can no more dictate what individuals desire. Such speculations are the job of entrepreneurs.
Legal Tender laws forces man to assume a specific unit exchange against his free will. It forces him to use a unit of exchange he would not have voluntarily chosen to use. It prevents him from using his free will in deciding such factors.
So in the first place it can be said that if we are forcing people to use a form of tender they would not voluntarily use than logically we can assume that such tender is not something that would have been realized on its own. In other words it is a form of currency no one wants, we are only compelled to use it. The most efficient most desired unit of exchange is realized on the market through normal economic means and economic competition.
Indeed money needs to compete on the free market just as anything else. Forcing people to use legal tender laws contradicts the underlying goal of economics. That is, to meet the demands of the individual.
In the absence of legal tender laws we can only speculate what would be realized. History and even modern evidence of the value of commodities leads us to believe that such tender would likely be silver and gold in combination. Though I am only speculating that fact. It could be cigarette's, it could be stones, it could be anything.
Pretending to know what the most efficient unit of exchange is making an argument that you can read the minds of every man and women on earth simultaneously. It reveals your belief in mathematical mysticism and underlines you as a monetary crank. You are no different than the ancient alchemist or warlock and will be taken no more seriously here.
tomozope:I never said it wasn't part of the money supply, what I said is that the fiat currency doesn't increase nor decrease our money supply at all.
Our money supply is currency. Money is currency.
tomozope:The true money is bank credit
And what form does bank credit take? Do you walk into McDonald's and say 'Bank X loaned me some credit, so I will pay with that'? No you had them pieces of fiat currency.
tomozope:In other words, there simply is no money until somebody goes to a bank and gets an extention of credit.
If that were true then explain the hypothetical situation of gold as a medium of exchange. To own gold I must go into debt? That is nonsense.
tomozope:All of that MZM can only exsist though if somebody, somewhere in the system has gone into debt to a private commericial bank. It's all bank credit (the true money in our system).
Money exists regardless of whether it is bank formulated or commodity formulated. I have a economic case study for you. It involves POW soldiers in WWII camps that utilized cigarettes as money to exchange for goods within the camp. Now according to you, all of these prisoners would have been in debt which would make absolutely no sense.
You guys have a lot of patience with absolute morons.
Esuric: You guys have a lot of patience with absolute morons.
I've lost mine. I really do give up. It's the same as talking to a brick wall. I think the most frustrating thing about it is this guy refuses to actually do any research. He would rather be watching you tube to get his education than read a real publication, like a book.
Esuric:You guys have a lot of patience with absolute morons.
I'm just checking in now and again to see what he has to say about my grandma.
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
filc:Money itself is a good.
Since our money (number) does not consist of any known chemical substance how can it be a good? Money is just a tool to make barter simpler, that's all it is.
filc:It's a market good just like anything else.
Can you tell me how the "market" produces this good?
filc:It is a tangible object subject to the laws of scarcity.
How can NUMBERS ever be scarce? It's impossible to run out of them.
filc:In the absence of Legal Tender laws we do not know what Unit of exchange people would resort to.
Check book money is not legal tender in any sense of the word, nor is it even called money in any law. It's all credit. Clearly the people have chosen bank credit as their meduim of exchange since most people don't want to deal in Coins or Cash. Anyone can look around them and see that virtually nobody uses legal tender anymore, plus there is a lot of places that refuse to accept legal tender anyways. Try to file any case with the supreme court and you'll find out. They will only accept a check in payment of a filing fee. They refuse legal tender, even though they tell us we all have to use it. Plenty of businesses don't use or won't accept legal tender either. Clearly they preffer the check book money.
filc:It is not our place to dictate such measures as to what is the best unit of exchange, we can no more dictate what individuals desire.
Last I checked indivduals desire economic freedom? How can you ever been economically free when all money is loaned into existance and as soon as time and interest kick in the debt grows but the money supply does not?
But it is our job to make sure that whatever is used for money doesn't give a special advantage to a particular group of people, or be used as a tool for theft by deception, as it is now.
filc:So in the first place it can be said that if we are forcing people to use a form of tender they would not voluntarily use than logically we can assume that such tender is not something that would have been realized on its own.
The vast majority of people do not use legal tender in the day to day lives, and the legal tender only represents a book keeping entry at a bank anyways. The real problem isn't what we use for money, the problem is the principles under which our money comes into circulation under.
filc:In other words it is a form of currency no one wants, we are only compelled to use it.
I hear a lot of people say that they don't want it, but EVERYONE I know is trying to get more of it. If the Austrian school really believed in what they said they wouldn't accept any of this money. If it's so horrible then why does the austrian school want more of it?
filc:The most efficient most desired unit of exchange is realized on the market through normal economic means and economic competition.
The most efficient unit of exchange is numbers and we can clearly see that it works. You can purchase anything in the world with those numbers in your checking account, the problem is that there is a complete monopoly on the creatation of money by the banking system as interest bearing loans.
filc:Indeed money needs to compete on the free market just as anything else.
We don't have a free market. We have a market completely controlled by the banking system. If they like you, they'll give you a huge loan again and again and you can do lots of business, if not they refuse to loan to you, or call in loans. It's impossible to get money into our system with borrowing it.
filc:Such speculations are the job of entrepreneurs.
Such specuulations are of job entrpreneurs? What he should say is that people who actually run a business realize in the long run that you cannot run a business on borrowed money.
filc:Legal Tender laws forces man to assume a specific unit exchange against his free will. It forces him to use a unit of exchange he would not have voluntarily chosen to use.
There is no laws requiring anyone to accept payment in check book money as it is not legal tender. There is also no statutory definition of the dollar. People only accept checkbook money as dollar through pure mental deception.
filc:It prevents him from using his free will in deciding such factors.
How can a man be free when all of the money is the system belongs to a private group of individuals and those individuals have a mortgage on 100% of the property in the USA?
No one is forcing you to use legal tender today since legal tender laws are not enforced anymore.
Everyone I know wants more of it. Everyone. I promise you I've never seen anyone pull legal tender out of their wallet and just throw it away. Why would anyone want to keep something they don't want? If you really don't want any of your legal tender please send it all to me. I'll even pay for shipping.
The only unit of exchange is bank credit because the banking system has a complete monopoly on the creation of money.
There is 5 forms of money. Debt money, Wealth money, Fiat money, commodity money, and fudiciary money. Debt money and wealth money can be made from any of the combination of the fiat, commodity and fidiciary money. If you really want the market to compete, the we are going to have to let wealth money compete with debt money otherwise right now, we only have debt money competing with debt money, and all of it owed to the banking system. Would you rather have your paycheck spent to you or loaned to you? Right now all money is loaned into exsistance.
filc:In the absence of legal tender laws we can only speculate what would be realized. History and even modern evidence of the value of commodities leads us to believe that such tender would likely be silver and gold in combination. Though I am only speculating that fact. It could be cigarette's, it could be stones, it could be anything.
Any study of history proves that the people always preffered the paper over the gold/silver. In the past people did use tobacco, stones, beeds, for money, the thing about gold/silver, tobacco, stones, sea shells, ect,...is that those all came into circulation as a wealth to the people and not an interest bearing debt. For more information on different things coined as money in the USA please read this UNDERSTANDING THE COINAGE CLAUSE. They even coined leather for god sakes. It's not what we use for money, its the principles under which money functions. A tool to enhance honest fair trade or a tool for theft by decpetion. Wealth money - vs - debt money. If the people really thought that stones or ciggerettes was a more convienent tool to enchance trade they would have chosen those long ago.
filc:Pretending to know what the most efficient unit of exchange is making an argument that you can read the minds of every man and women on earth simultaneously.
All a person has to do is look at society and view what they are using. The people have always chosen the easiest, most effient form of money available. this has never changed throughout history to my knowledge.
filc:It reveals your belief in mathematical mysticism and underlines you as a monetary crank. You are no different than the ancient alchemist or warlock and will be taken no more seriously here.
What the people choose to use for their medium of exchange doesn't have anything to do with mathematical mysticism. It has to do with what the people preffer. Considering that the vast majority of the people refuse to use metal coinage for money and preffer using just simple numbers for money I think I'm in the mainstream of reality here. Sorry I'm not a warlock or an alchemist, I'm just a man who is able to think for himself instead of following a belief system that gold just has to work because it's gold! Come on, the people never wanted to use the gold anyways, it's heavy, bulky, and isn't convenient. If we really went to using gold/silver all ecommerce would shut down, plus can you imagine the shipping costs just to pay for something across the country? It's so much easier to use numbers for money.
Laughing Man:Our money supply is currency. Money is currency.
97% of our money supply (or more) is just a book keeping entry (electronic entry in a computer) at a bank. The paper currency and coins that are part of our money supply only represent at best 3% of our money supply.
Laughing Man:And what form does bank credit take? Do you walk into McDonald's and say 'Bank X loaned me some credit, so I will pay with that'? No you had them pieces of fiat currency.
Last time I went to any fast food place I had the option of paying electronically or with paper currency/coin. In order for my checking account to have any money in it somebody had to borrow the money and pay interest on it. So yes, McDonalds only accepts borrowed money for payment because that is all we have in circulation. Bank credit takes the form of a book keeping entry. All banks do to create money is make an entry on their books.
Laughing Man:If that were true then explain the hypothetical situation of gold as a medium of exchange. To own gold I must go into debt? That is nonsense.
Gold used to be a form of money and because man combined his labor, raw resources of the eath and his knowledge under the 1792 coinage act all gold money came into exsistance as a wealth. You can still get gold and not go into debt if you own a gold mine but you cannot have that gold coined into money free of charge. Now all coinage stocks are delievered directly to the federal reserve system and delievered through the banking system by law. The only way you or I can purchase those gold coins is by someone going into debt to the bank then using that bank credit to purchase those coins. If you want to just purchase gold bullion with money, again, someone has to borrow that money first be it you or someone else.
Laughing Man:Money exists regardless of whether it is bank formulated or commodity formulated.
Money does not just exisist. It's a man made product and is ONLY made in your local bank when they issue a loan.
Laughing Man: I have a economic case study for you. It involves POW soldiers in WWII camps that utilized cigarettes as money to exchange for goods within the camp. Now according to you, all of these prisoners would have been in debt which would make absolutely no sense.
They would all be in debt if the supplier of the ciggerettes only loaned those ciggerettes to the prisoners, and the supplier was the only source of the ciggerettes. If the prisions could create their own ciggerettes to pay the interest they they wouldn't need to borrow in the first place and there would be no debt and a meduim of exchange within the camp. If the camp's prisoners did work and were paid (spent) ciggerettes then all those ciggerettes would be debt free.
Debt Money = Loaned into circulation
Wealth money = Spent into circulation
tomozope:Since our money (number) does not consist of any known chemical substand how can it be a good? Money is just a tool to make barter simpler, that's all it is.
What on earth are you talking about? Checmical sustand?
Money is a good because people want units of exchange. It make's their life easier.
tomozope:Can you tell me how the "market" produces this good?
Can you tell me how Apple makes the Ipod? No? How about how a pencil is made?
tomozope:How can NUMBERS ever be scarce? It's impossible to run out of them.
Money is not "numbers". Don't convolute our present fiat system with money. You repeatedly attempt to do this. Stop it.
tomozope:Check book money is not legal tender in any sense of the word, nor is it even called money in any law.
Here you go. You didn't even comprehend what I said. And your arguing in circles again. Your wrong, you don't understand what I said, nor do you understand what you responded with. In fact I think you just copied and pasted some random crap from one of your comments above. Did you actually read anything we posted or are you just re-organizing your same points and re-posting them.
At any rate it's late I'll have to read the rest of your response to tomorrow. Though judging by your first few comments it's obvious you have nothing intelligent to respond with.
It's like trying to teach calculus without knowing addition.
P.S.
tomozope:Check book money is not legal tender in any sense of the word,
This is false. The very people who wrote the laws into existence would disagree with you. Think about what you post before posting it.
filc: tomozope:Since our money (number) does not consist of any known chemical substand how can it be a good? Money is just a tool to make barter simpler, that's all it is. What on earth are you talking about? Checmical sustand? Money is a good because people want units of exchange. It make's their life easier. tomozope:Can you tell me how the "market" produces this good? Can you tell me how Apple makes the Ipod? No? How about how a pencil is made? tomozope:How can NUMBERS ever be scarce? It's impossible to run out of them. Money is not "numbers". Don't convolute our present fiat system with money. You repeatedly attempt to do this. Stop it. tomozope:Check book money is not legal tender in any sense of the word, nor is it even called money in any law. Here you go. You didn't even comprehend what I said. And your arguing in circles again. Your wrong, you don't understand what I said, nor do you understand what you responded with. In fact I think you just copied and pasted some random crap from one of your comments above. Did you actually read anything we posted or are you just re-organizing your same points and re-posting them. At any rate it's late I'll have to read the rest of your response to tomorrow. Though judging by your first few comments it's obvious you have nothing intelligent to respond with. It's like trying to teach calculus without knowing addition. P.S. tomozope:Check book money is not legal tender in any sense of the word, This is false. The very people who wrote the laws into existence would disagree with you. Think about what you post before posting it.
I believe this is called 'the method of tenacity.'
tomozope: Laughing Man:Our money supply is currency. Money is currency. 97% of our money supply (or more) is just a book keeping entry (electronic entry in a computer) at a bank. The paper currency and coins that are part of our money supply only represent at best 3% of our money supply
97% of our money supply (or more) is just a book keeping entry (electronic entry in a computer) at a bank. The paper currency and coins that are part of our money supply only represent at best 3% of our money supply
You didn't refute what Laughing Man Said. You posted another non-sequitur comment. And it's apparent you don't even comprehend the folly of your post. We understand that 3% of the money supply is paper money. That doesn't magically change the laws of nature and economics.
Stop studying mysticism and come back to reality. STop watching youtube and read a book.
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT NON-SEQUITUR MEANS?
Esuric:I believe this is called 'the method of tenacity.'
He's making me go insane! lol...
filc: What on earth are you talking about? Checmical sustand? Money is a good because people want units of exchange. It make's their life easier.
Type O, Chemical Substance
Goods
possessions, esp. movable effects or personal property.
articles of trade; wares; merchandise: canned goods.
Numbers clearly cannot be a good because they do not consist of any known chemical substance. When we use numbers for money they can only be used to enhance fair trade or be used for a tool for theft by deception, as it is now.
filc:Can you tell me how Apple makes the Ipod? No? How about how a pencil is made?
Apples combines the raw materials of the earth, with mankinds labor, and knowledge to produce the Ipod. That is how all wealth is created. Same thing with pencils.
filc:Money is not "numbers". Don't convolute our present fiat system with money. You repeatedly attempt to do this. Stop it
What determins the value of a federal reserve note? That quality of the paper is the same, same weight same ink, same demensions? Isn't what determins the value the number printed on it? Numbers are what we use for money. Stop it ????? Stop telling the truth? Numbers is all we use for money. Any thinking person can see this.
filc:It's like trying to teach calculus without knowing addition.
I'm the one open to talk about
filc:This is false. The very people who wrote the laws into existence would disagree with you. Think about what you post before posting it.
Can you show me a single law that called check book money legal tender? In the 1990's congress had one hearing about making checkbook money legal tender. I'll save you the work and let you know that check book money is not legal tender. It is only money by pure mental deception and is not called money by any law, or called legal tender.
filc:You didn't refute what Laughing Man Said.
Because he was right, the paper currency is part of our money supply but it only represents at best 3% of it but that paper currency never increases or decreases the money supply because it only moves into circulation by drawing down on a checking account. All paper currency is a portable book keeping entry. That's it.
tomozope: Because he was right, the paper currency is part of our money supply but it only represents at best 3% of it but that paper currency never increases or decreases the money supply because it only moves into circulation by drawing down on a checking account. All paper currency is a portable book keeping entry. That's it.
The MZM has been moving upward though. Bank reserves have gone to over 1 trillion. You are incorrect to think that money supply doesn't increase or decrease due to paper increases.
filc:DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT NON-SEQUITUR MEANS?
Question - What does it take to fix an economy?
Answer - Austrians.
Laughing Man:You are incorrect to think that money supply doesn't increase or decrease due to paper increases.
The money supply only increases when new loans are made because that is the only way under our current monetary system that money is actually created.
tomozope:The money supply only increases when new loans are made because that is the only way under our current monetary system that money is actually created.
It seems like whenever I bring up a retort to your argument, you drop it and agree with me. Let's see how far I can push this:
Origins of Money
I am not in agreement with tom that money creation starts with checkbook money. Before the fed could initially create any checkbook money it had to meet a reserve requirement under the federal reserve act.
I do not believe interest is the real problem because interest represents time if you are loaning something you own. I consider government spending the big problem because that is why the fed monetizes and inflates.
I do think present money represents debt/government obligation. I haven't seen any explanation of how it is not representative of government obligation. Government does not produce anything.
I have created a quick photoshop illustration to clearly articulate my position providing any detractor something tangible to refute.
Live_Free_Or_Die:I am not in agreement with tom that money creation starts with checkbook money. Before the fed could initially create any checkbook money it had to meet a reserve requirement under the federal reserve act.
This is partially true, before the banks can create any checkbook money the banks must meet a reserve requirement? What does that reserve requirement consist of? Another book keeping entry.
http://www.theantechamber.net/VkDocuments/DeptOfTreas/DeptOfTreasPage3.html
But most importanly we don't use the reserves for money, and some local bankers told me that they don't even pay much, if any attention to them anymore. Reserves are mearly a way for central control over the National Banks (federally chartered banks) and not the state chartered banks. State Chartered banks are 100% controlled by the state laws and those vary from state to state.
Live_Free_Or_Die:I do not believe interest is the real problem because interest represents time if you are loaning something you own. I consider government spending the big problem because that is why the fed monetizes and inflates.
I believe you when you say that you don't believe interest is a problem. Most people believe it's a blessing because that is what most of us have been taught our entire lives, but if interest isn't a problem why is it everyone complains about high interest rates? Clearly its a problem for them. If it doesn't affect our lives why do people try to get the lowest rate possible? Interest is the cost of doing business, along with taxes. The government creates no money therefore does not "spend" it. The government first BORROWS the money (or taxes it away from people who already borrowed it) then spends it. But all that money was always created by an extention of credit by a private commercial bank.
Live_Free_Or_Die:I do think present money represents debt/government obligation. I haven't seen any explanation of how it is not representative of government obligation. Government does not produce anything.
The Law says otherwise. When they passed took us off the gold standard they passed a law saying all this money will be BACKED by the FULL FAITH AND CREDIT OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT. Credit is an agreement to pay something later. The only collateral the government has to pay with is your property. Literally all of these debts (private, government, business) are backed with our property as a mortgage to the banking system on a promise to pay that they never have to honor, and the only way out of this debt is to put money into circulation that is free of debt.
I'm not saying they passed good law, they passed bad law. Now it's up to us to start passing good laws that benifit the people and repeal the bad laws designed to give the banking system a business that can't fail (not for the big guys because they operate on a different set of rules).
tomozope:Because in the past people were able to monetize their production as a wealth to the people, which currently cannot be done.
Knight_of_BAAWA:Non sequitur
tomozope:I want to hear your answer in detail.
Knight_of_BAAWA:Currently, we have frac-reserve fiat currency from a central bank. Remove all that and your objection goes away.
Removing the central bank or the fiat currency(which doesn't exsist until the bank deposits do) still won't put any debt free money into circulation. Can you please tell me how getting rid of a central bank and fiat currency (all currencies are fiat) will solve the debt problem?
Are you supporting a replacement fiat currency?
The last two times the central banks were eliminated the debt always grew because all the smaller banks continued to create money via an extention of credit.
The only exception to this MAY be when Lincoln issued the green backs, but even those went on the books of the government as a debt, but they didn't go into circulation as a debt to the people.
Tomodope - why must you rely on government controlled currency, can't the market choose its own? Are you familiar with the effects of fractional reserve banking on the money supply and business cycle? Are you on any medications we should be aware of?
filc wrote:
DrKrbyLuv:: END the FED, all new money should be issued by the government. The money could be free of debt (from the government's perspective) to eliminate any national debt.
Q). So you want to believe the fairy tail that all money is dept.
A). Virtually all money is indeed created as debt. Here is a quote from Robert Hemphill, past Manager of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta that explains this fact:
"If all the bank loans were paid no one would have a bank deposit and there would not be a dollar of coin or currency in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous: if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is.
It (the banking problem) is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."
Q). You want the nation to forgive all dept and make the money neutral. Since the money is only a unit of exchange and therefore only a representation of a nations wealth, and since the actual money really wasn't dept at all but a representation of that nations wealth nothing happens. Step one literally does NOTHING to the state of the economy.
A). No, I am not suggesting that the principal debt be forgiven. I am suggesting that the government create the money the same way that banks do...through journal entries; for free. If banks are able to create money for free, why can't the government? The private Federal Reserve is charted to create and control our money.
When the government borrows money from the banks, they provide bonds or some type of collateral. The banks back nothing. As Thomas Edison said: "if a nation can issue a dollar bond, it can issue a dollar bill. If the bond were no good, then dollar bill would be no good either."
Step 1 eliminates $4.5 trillion dollars in debt to the private Federal reserve. It extinguishes the debt - the money ceases to exist. Our national debt goes from around $12 trillion down to $7.5 trillion. Money is created when loans are issued and debts incurred. Money is extinguished when loans are repaid.
Larry
bbnet:Tomodope - why must you rely on government controlled currency, can't the market choose its own?
The government only prints the non-redemable private bank notes and then sells them directly to the banking system for the cost of printing. Indivdual banks can still print their own notes if they chose. There is nothing stopping them they just can't print FR notes.
bbnet:Are you familiar with the effects of fractional reserve banking on the money supply and business cycle?
Yes, FR banking ALWAYS creates a shortage of money once time and interest kick in on borrowed money, and the core function of FR banking is to transfer all of the wealth of the producers over to the non producers. Fractional banking is the cause of the business cycle because it's impossible to have a recession unless the private banking system creates it. The entire system will always lead to financial ruin. If the problem is all our money is created as interest bearing debt then the solution is the opposite. Create money free of debt and be able to have the money system benifit the people not the banking system.
bbnet:Are you on any medications we should be aware of?
Nope. Clearly my mind if free from any of this bullshit you're been tricked into believing. I'm still waiting to hear what your solution is. You're telling me that the legal tender laws are the problem but legal tender doesn't increase nor decrease our money supply. How would getting rid of all legal tender laws get rid of the debt?