I'm working on a space game on and off (very slowly), and I want to inject elements of real economics into it. I think I'm set on most of that, but it occurred to me that Earth's precious metals probably wouldn't be as valuable in a universe with many colonized planets, space mining, etc.
What do you guys think? Is there some other resource or commodity that would satisfy the function of money in space?
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.—Ludwig von Mises
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.
Spice. I saw it in Dune.
I've been thinking of this a bit recently. I think precious metals will always retain the function of money, and I think that metals will travel with or be mined by us on our space travels.
It also depends on what kind of society we are talking about here. Are they permanently living on another planet or moon? How advanced is their technology? Interplanetary? Interstellar, Intergalactic?
I have some ideas. I think food (fruit, vegetables, etc) will be used as money. Seeds could also be easily transported and used in an exchange. New crops, food sources, plants, and other agricultural products will be desired when interplanetary space colonization is starting out.
Flaklar dust; it's quite pretty, and makes for wonderful jewelry.
"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."
Have you played Eve?
Think of a rare ore mined out of roids. That could be the commodity.
Also if oyu have a big universe consider having different commodities in different regions. Perhaps the ore is too rare in other regions its not fit to be money(assuming that doesn't overly complicate the game)
IMO Sci-fi is the perfect setting for an ancap game or fiction story. I'm interested in what your plans are on this. You should PM me if you have any details written down any where.
filc:Have you played Eve?
Nah... considered it for a bit, but ultimately decided not to. What does that game use?
FunkedUp:It also depends on what kind of society we are talking about here. Are they permanently living on another planet or moon? How advanced is their technology? Interplanetary? Interstellar, Intergalactic?
Interstellar travel would be considered common. Permanent habitation on planets and moons.
FunkedUp:I have some ideas. I think food (fruit, vegetables, etc) will be used as money. Seeds could also be easily transported and used in an exchange. New crops, food sources, plants, and other agricultural products will be desired when interplanetary space colonization is starting out.
Seeds would make sense. But for simplicity (since I can't implement a supercomputer that can decide a whole economy... that'd be statism), I would need to decide on one commodity. Maybe soybeans? That idea kind of turns me off, though.
Justin Spahr-Summers: filc: Have you played Eve? Nah... considered it for a bit, but ultimately decided not to. What does that game use?
filc: Have you played Eve?
I ask because the game is essentially Anarcho-Capitalism online when flying in Nullsec. but they don't use commodity money, they use Isk. However, Minerals have really become the de-facto replacement for isk. People don't necessarily carry pools of isk as they do minerals. Minerals are the life blood of eve. The most basic units are created from minerals. From there your Space Stations, All forms of spaceships, among other things get built from that.
It really just makes alot of sense. In fact if someone was to actually look at Eve from an economic standpoint I'm sure they would find some very interesting phenomena that would support all sorts of ancap analogies.
Nullsec space is essentially where the game's "police" do not exist. It's basically where the simulated "State" ends and the "Player" managed space begins. It's ancap in every sense of the word and it's marvelous, profitable, and dangerous, and fun!
Any ways I edited my earlier post, I didn't know you'd get back to it so quickly. Check it out. (About minerals)
Justin Spahr-Summers:Seeds would make sense. But for simplicity (since I can't implement a supercomputer that can decide a whole economy... that'd be statism), I would need to decide on one commodity. Maybe soybeans? That idea kind of turns me off, though.
I don't think specific types of food make sense. Since it's going to change from planet to planet, system to system. And if we are to assume that your civilization is spacebound then they probably have an extremely advanced pool of capital goods. This is why I think of minerals. The building blocks that feed the lifeblood of an intergalactic civilization.
I'd put whatever you select (depends on what's available in game of course, it needs to be abundant enough to be divisible and convenient) through the "currency test" (google something like "characteristics of money" for more, there are lots of differing descriptions). I'm sure Rothbard wrote about this somewhere too but couldn't say where.
Quick example I came across in 2 seconds of looking:
General acceptability:The essential quality of a good money material is that it would acceptable to all without any hesitation in exchange for goods and services. Stability of value: Another very important attribute of a good money material is that it should be fairly stable in value. If the commodity chosen as money is subject to violent fluctuations, then that is useless money. Money is the standard by which we measure the value of all other commodities and if the standard itself is influenced by changes in its demand and supply, then how it can serve as perfect money. Transportability: The commodity chosen should be easily transportable without any depreciation. It should have a large value in small bulk. Storability: Another requisite of good money material is that it should be storable without depreciation. If the commodity chosen as money is perishable, then that cannot as good money.
Divisibility:The commodity chosen as money should be capable of being re united without losing its value.
Homogeneity:The commodity selected as money should be of a uniform quality and capable of standardization.
Congizability:One very essential condition of perfect money is that it should be easily recognizable by the aye, ear or the touch. (I'd also add, or directly specify anyway, that this includes "non-counterfeitability".)
I've actually thought about the idea of currency in games quite a bit. It's a very, very complicated subject (more so than currency in real life, hah!) because it is still a game after all, and you can't always have AI and/or players with complete control over what is used as currency (it'll be too distracting from the game itself).
You could try not forcing the player to use any type of currency, but then you might be deviating too far from the game's focus. In the absence of government criminals enforcing 'legal tender', currency would develop on it's own anyway, but to simulate this I think your game would have to be very economically sophisticated. You'd be trying to simulate human actions and decision making, after all.
Anyway... still for most games I'd recommend being a little tyrannical and simply deciding on what to use as a currency, simply because you'd be massively increasing the scope otherwise.
Well, Eve does have the (basically fiat) "ISK" currency. But part of the reason it's used by everyone is simply because the game was built that way. If it were designed in such a way that everything required bartering, players would have started to identify one or more "favored" items which meet their currency needs and they'd be using that instead. I've made similar suggestions to other game designers before in the past (but keep in mind it's probably only possible in MMO online type games because AI is probably too stupid.)
It would be really interesting if they tried to do away with ISK entirely. I bet that'd make an interesting thread on the forums.
There are some good threads about this in (I believe) the game design forum on gamedev.net, a few of which I participated in (you could probably find me ). It's a big challenge making this realistic, so I'd imagine you'll have to figure out what level of compromise you'd like.
Oh, as for actual commodity suggestions, an easy way out would be simply to invent some new material (actually that's just like Dune's "spice")-- but whatever you do, please, no fiat currencies. lol
Ansury:I've actually thought about the idea of currency in games quite a bit. It's a very, very complicated subject (more so than currency in real life, hah!) because it is still a game after all, and you can't always have AI and/or players with complete control over what is used as currency (it'll be too distracting from the game itself). You could try not forcing the player to use any type of currency, but then you might be deviating too far from the game's focus. In the absence of government criminals enforcing 'legal tender', currency would develop on it's own anyway, but to simulate this I think your game would have to be very economically sophisticated. You'd be trying to simulate human actions and decision making, after all. Anyway... still for most games I'd recommend being a little tyrannical and simply deciding on what to use as a currency, simply because you'd be massively increasing the scope otherwise.
I have seriously thought about possibly implementing a barter system, from which a currency could emerge by the players' interactions. You mentioned AI being too stupid, and this is one of the drawbacks I'm considering (although my game will be made with a massively-multiplayer focus in mind). I already plan to have very rudimentary supply/demand effects in place.
Another thing, although this is more of just a gameplay mechanic, is "cargo room" aboard a ship. So although there will be many tradeable commodities, they will probably trade in extremely large volumes (to make up for the cost of space travel, etc.).
filc:I ask because the game is essentially Anarcho-Capitalism online when flying in Nullsec. but they don't use commodity money, they use Isk. However, Minerals have really become the de-facto replacement for isk. People don't necessarily carry pools of isk as they do minerals. Minerals are the life blood of eve. The most basic units are created from minerals. From there your Space Stations, All forms of spaceships, among other things get built from that. It really just makes alot of sense. In fact if someone was to actually look at Eve from an economic standpoint I'm sure they would find some very interesting phenomena that would support all sorts of ancap analogies. Nullsec space is essentially where the game's "police" do not exist. It's basically where the simulated "State" ends and the "Player" managed space begins. It's ancap in every sense of the word and it's marvelous, profitable, and dangerous, and fun!
I might have to try the free trial, then, or something, because this sounds a lot like the atmosphere I want to create. I'm trying not to be too preachy with my design (leaving some room for small governments), but there's definitely going to be a huge element of private defenses and voluntaryism.
Gold-pressed-Latinum
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
Oxygen.
You observe, but you do not see.
Justin Spahr-Summers:I might have to try the free trial, then, or something, because this sounds a lot like the atmosphere I want to create. I'm trying not to be too preachy with my design (leaving some room for small governments), but there's definitely going to be a huge element of private defenses and voluntaryism.
I'll get in contact with you so I can give you a tour when your ingame. There's alot to take in. One thing to take from Eve is how NOT to make the learning curve of your game.
SPACE CASH!
Robbery: The nation's fastest growing career!
Duties: Giving the people their bread and circuses, extracting payment by force, validating legitimacy, etc.
Job Outlook: Ever increasing and shows no signs of stopping!
My guess is whatever fuel the ships run on. It depends, what's the overall setting? In a war setting, I could imagine laser batteries being used, for instance.
Periodically the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.
Thomas Jefferson
Justin Laws: Oxygen.
Oh duh, why the fuck didn't I think of that...
Justin Laws:Oxygen.
Oxygen would make sense if people primarily lived in space, but planets will be colonized. And even today we have oxygen recycling capabilities.
Wanderer:My guess is whatever fuel the ships run on. It depends, what's the overall setting? In a war setting, I could imagine laser batteries being used, for instance.
This suggestion makes a lot of sense. It would also be pretty cool if players had to trade commodities for fuel, especially with one another. It might even spark off a paradigm shift in their head.
Kind of reminds me of Firefly, in a way, where they were always trying to just keep going. Fuel would drive a space life (pun not intended).
Once you have the means to break down common components in space (oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, etc.) you have the materials necessary to recreate an earth-like environment - air, water, CO2, etc. The quantity of these materials would not make a very useful currency.
Energy sources are much more abundant in space, provided you have the means to tap into them. The fuels that would provide life support systems, including radiation protection, and transportation would be more abundant and the systems applying these resources would be more efficient. These materials would be extremely important, but still not good candidates for money.
Gold and silver still have value in space. Both metals are used in significant qualtities in space vehicles today due to their properties in extreme environments (gold more so than silver). For example, gold does not corrode or lose it's electrical properties in a space environment, where temperatures range to both extremes. There is no reason to assume that gold will not retain it's value in space. Even if they find more of the stuff out there, the supply of it will not diminish it's usefulness or value to the human race.
Now for a space-based game you could use practically anything that's novel. You could claim that all space vehicles capable of FTL or near FTL speeds require a special diamond or mineral that is in rare supply - whether the scarcity is real or artificial (introduces an element of intrigue into your game if there's an artificial reason for scarcity). In addition, your currency may be completely electronic - although the practicality of such a system breaks down if you limit interstellar communications. It all depends on the amount of realism you want in your game. Overall, I think a gold standard is pretty sufficient even in a speculative fictional universe.
K.C. Farmer:gold more so than silver
I should correct this by saying that silver may be even more useful. Both materials are indespensible in space and even in colonization of planets and other satellites.
K.C. Farmer:Gold and silver still have value in space. Both metals are used in significant qualtities in space vehicles today due to their properties in extreme environments (gold more so than silver). For example, gold does not corrode or lose it's electrical properties in a space environment, where temperatures range to both extremes. There is no reason to assume that gold will not retain it's value in space. Even if they find more of the stuff out there, the supply of it will not diminish it's usefulness or value to the human race.
This makes a lot of sense, but I might still go with fuel for the aforementioned "paradigm-shifting" possibilities. People can very easily understand how gold would be used as money (even if they would never support a gold standard), but to use a more exhaustible commodity might get them thinking.
Jonathan M. F. Catalán:Spice. I saw it in Dune.
Spice's value was that it was required for space travel, more specifically to fold space. In addition there were a lot of other odd uses for the stuff. As far as applying economics to a sci-fi genre, I think Frank Herbert did a pretty fine job.
Justin Spahr-Summers: Ansury: I've actually thought about the idea of currency in games quite a bit. It's a very, very complicated subject (more so than currency in real life, hah!) because it is still a game after all, and you can't always have AI and/or players with complete control over what is used as currency (it'll be too distracting from the game itself). You could try not forcing the player to use any type of currency, but then you might be deviating too far from the game's focus. In the absence of government criminals enforcing 'legal tender', currency would develop on it's own anyway, but to simulate this I think your game would have to be very economically sophisticated. You'd be trying to simulate human actions and decision making, after all. Anyway... still for most games I'd recommend being a little tyrannical and simply deciding on what to use as a currency, simply because you'd be massively increasing the scope otherwise. I have seriously thought about possibly implementing a barter system, from which a currency could emerge by the players' interactions.
Ansury: I've actually thought about the idea of currency in games quite a bit. It's a very, very complicated subject (more so than currency in real life, hah!) because it is still a game after all, and you can't always have AI and/or players with complete control over what is used as currency (it'll be too distracting from the game itself). You could try not forcing the player to use any type of currency, but then you might be deviating too far from the game's focus. In the absence of government criminals enforcing 'legal tender', currency would develop on it's own anyway, but to simulate this I think your game would have to be very economically sophisticated. You'd be trying to simulate human actions and decision making, after all. Anyway... still for most games I'd recommend being a little tyrannical and simply deciding on what to use as a currency, simply because you'd be massively increasing the scope otherwise.
I have seriously thought about possibly implementing a barter system, from which a currency could emerge by the players' interactions.
Justin, I'm fully convinced that is the way to go. What kind of message would it send if the game's "free market" money had to be implemented by the game designers? Even in basic MMORPGs like Ragnarok Online, commodity money has taken over despite the fact that there was a different "money" designed into the game.
By they way, Ansury, would you care to give an overview of the aspects of Eve that might be of interest here?
Why anarchy fails
AJ: Justin Spahr-Summers:I have seriously thought about possibly implementing a barter system, from which a currency could emerge by the players' interactions. Justin, I'm fully convinced that is the way to go. What kind of message would it send if the game's "free market" money had to be implemented by the game designers? Even in basic MMORPGs like Ragnarok Online, commodity money has taken over despite the fact that there was a different "money" designed into the game.
Justin Spahr-Summers:I have seriously thought about possibly implementing a barter system, from which a currency could emerge by the players' interactions.
I agree—it is definitely the way to go. But, like other posters have mentioned, there's a big element of time investment there. I want to make a point, yes, but I also want a game, and I don't want to be spending years working on it. If I can figure out a way to do it easily, I absolutely will; if I can't, at least it won't be fiat currency!
The question is, what commodity would be have the most demand in the high-tech society you envision?
I suppose that metals would be valuable, for building spaceships and other equipment. Gold, for example, resists corrosion, is a good conductor, and reflects infrared light. On the other hand, aluminum might be more valuable in this fictional space-based economy you are postulating.
I think the most in-demand commodity in space would be energy. Energy would have to be generated for powering the space ships, communications, lighting and heating, growing food, processing water, etc. So what is the energy source used? Hydrogen? Lithium? Uranium? Thorium? I suspect that fuel would be the most in-demand commodity, and thus used as currency.
Where are people living? Are they living on Mars, or are they living in a space ship? I suspect the space ship would be more hospitable.
In real life, I don't think it will ever be economical for humans to ever live anyplace other than earth. Why go to the added expense of literally building castles in the sky, when everything we need is right on earth?
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
Justin Spahr-Summers:I agree—it is definitely the way to go. But, like other posters have mentioned, there's a big element of time investment there. I want to make a point, yes, but I also want a game, and I don't want to be spending years working on it. If I can figure out a way to do it easily, I absolutely will; if I can't, at least it won't be fiat currency!
Actually I don't think it will be that hard. So many games put a focus on a monetary unit. That is stuff you will have to program for. Removing that focus doesn't detract from "gameplay fun" and doesn't necessarily add a mad learning curve to get around. Just make sure your market is full of lots of things. Things with little marginal utility, things with lots. Rare things, moderate, and common. Then let the money emerge on its own, thats something you won't even have to worry about as the programmer. The players will. Just make a good contracting/trade system.
I think removing the monetary part of the game may save you development time and I don't think it will jeopardize any type of fun factor. If anything it will add to it.
Two games you should research as far as free markets go (Not completely though, a hard set currency is used)
Eve Online
Early on Star Wars Galaxies
If anyone played SWG early on than you know it was probably the most dynamic most indept market game made to date. Possibly more indept than Eve. SWG even had player built commercialized cities. Large cities where players would have everything from malls to manufacturing shops to trade shops. All items in the games from the tiniest units to the large factories were player built.
Items increased in quality based on a players manufacturing skill and the quality of his capital goods. It would go all the way down to the very quality of ore the player would harvest out of the ground.
One thing is for sure, your game is going to have a huge DB.
Justin Spahr-Summers:I want to make a point, yes, but I also want a game, and I don't want to be spending years working on it.
A barter system seems easy enough - just let players trade whatever they want with other players. Particularly, if you have a fungible commodity (like a mineral or material, like gold), if nothing else that will likely become money.
No headaches for anyone, and besides, having a barter phase would be a great economics lesson for them. Remember that what players really want in a game are the opposite of what they want in real life - the more obstacles the more fun. On a superficial level the player wants it easy, but it's more fun if it isn't so easy (as long as it's not frustratingly hard, and barter in a game just isn't). The players need to keep getting beaten down, or else the game element ends and it becomes just a ho-hum activity. Most game designers don't even realize this.
Justin Spahr-Summers: Justin Laws: Oxygen. Oxygen would make sense if people primarily lived in space, but planets will be colonized. And even today we have oxygen recycling capabilities.
Yeah, I agree. I was thinking about The Cat Who Walks Through Walls (by Heinlein), where Richard Ames argues with this bum about oxygen costing money, because somebody had to use money to bring it to the moon so the folks in Luna City and Hong Kong Luna could breath. yada yada yada but you're right.
Well, part of the problem is that I'm taking inspiration from a game that has an incredibly primitive trading system. It sufficed, so I didn't see a need to make it much more complex than basic supply and demand, but, I concede, a barter system sounds very cool. The real challenge with that, actually, will be programming the AI for it.
filc:One thing is for sure, your game is going to have a huge DB.
I'm programming a serverless game (or, to be more exact, a game without a central server).
Justin Spahr-Summers: What commodity would be used as money in space?
What commodity would be used as money in space?
If there is intersocietal integration, then one commodity will beat all other commodities. This would mean if someone from society A could supply people in society B with goods, and the other way around, and often.
If such intersocietal integration is very very weak, then you just remain having separate societies with separate moneys.
Justin Spahr-Summers:The real challenge with that, actually, will be programming the AI for it.
NPCs could just act as clearinghouses for other players' stuff, like how there is the universal market thingy in WoW where you can buy goods being sold by people in remote locations. Then there'd be no need to create AI for determining how much each NPC values each in-game item at any given time (that would be probably be a headache).
AJ: Justin Spahr-Summers:The real challenge with that, actually, will be programming the AI for it. NPCs could just act as clearinghouses for other players' stuff, like how there is the universal market thingy in WoW where you can buy goods being sold by people in remote locations. Then there'd be no need to create AI for determining how much each NPC values each in-game item at any given time (that would be probably be a headache).
Are you referring to WoW's auction houses? I think I erred in calling this game massively-multiplayer; more precisely, it could be called scalably multiplayer, in that I want a game that can be played solo, with only AIs, as well as a game that can scale up to huge hordes of players. I'm not worried about implementing the networking aspect of that (already got it figured out), but it is causing some dilemmas regarding gameplay, like this one.
Credit (cards).
Yea than that will be much more difficult.
What about the items they use in prison as money? Weapons, cigarettes... things of that nature.
AJ: Justin Spahr-Summers: Ansury: I've actually thought about the idea of currency in games quite a bit. It's a very, very complicated subject (more so than currency in real life, hah!) because it is still a game after all, and you can't always have AI and/or players with complete control over what is used as currency (it'll be too distracting from the game itself). You could try not forcing the player to use any type of currency, but then you might be deviating too far from the game's focus. In the absence of government criminals enforcing 'legal tender', currency would develop on it's own anyway, but to simulate this I think your game would have to be very economically sophisticated. You'd be trying to simulate human actions and decision making, after all. Anyway... still for most games I'd recommend being a little tyrannical and simply deciding on what to use as a currency, simply because you'd be massively increasing the scope otherwise. I have seriously thought about possibly implementing a barter system, from which a currency could emerge by the players' interactions. Justin, I'm fully convinced that is the way to go. What kind of message would it send if the game's "free market" money had to be implemented by the game designers? Even in basic MMORPGs like Ragnarok Online, commodity money has taken over despite the fact that there was a different "money" designed into the game. By they way, Ansury, would you care to give an overview of the aspects of Eve that might be of interest here?
The Ragnarok Online (I'm not familiar with the game) currency takeover is interesting! I'd never have expected that in a game where a different currency was hard coded (i.e. almost mandatory), but it's very cool.
I'm not an expert on Eve so I can't say whether there are any commodities that have taken over ISK's money role. There is ore trading that goes on, primarily I believe to support manufacturing and other processes, however I suspect that ISK (I think due to the fact that it is so tightly integrated with the game's market and interface, by game design) still plays a role in the vast majority of transactions. But research may tell us otherwise.
If you're planning on having a large number of players in a large world (MMO style), implementing a barter-only system might be totally feasible. AI still may be a bit problematic if there are AI merchants, but maybe not so bad. A barter-only system should develop an "unofficial" currency (or multiple), depending on what players consider the best choice for a currency, so technically it would always remain a barter system but practically speaking not so much.
Of one thing I'm sure of - Eve is definitely a good research subject for anyone interested in the topic and anyone looking for an "as real as possible" large scale economic simulation. The problem with looking to most game economies which simulate an economy is that there is generally a lack of consequences, so players behave very differently than they would in reality. But Eve (while definitely not as unforgiving as real life) is a game with consequences, at least as far as games go. So while I'd still use caution making ancap analogies, it might be the one of the best virtual "ancap-ish" experiments yet.
Just watch out for what those pesky "god-like" developer updates may do to the economy, scarcity of goods and resources, efficiency of professions, and so on.
One thing to consider, when designing the game economy and the material world (while remembering to keep an eye on project scope), is realistically simulating each aspect of an ideal currency that I listed above (if applicable):
General acceptability, Stability of value, Transportability, Storability, Divisibility, Homogeneity, Cognizability
Meaning, if you leave out some of these realties from the simulation, I'm not sure you'll get realistic result. For example if every item in the game is of the same quality, you've just eliminated homogeneity as a criteria. Or if every item in the game is just as easy to transport from one place to another (pencils take up as much inventory space as monitors, etc), you've eliminated transportability as a criteria. Or if food never spoils (storability), now you may have just opened up the door to cupcakes becoming the de facto standard in trade deals. Etc.
Not sure how useful this is (I've yet to think about it in great, great detail), but I'd be interested in hearing thoughts about it. I am afraid it may increase the complexity a bit too much. Perhaps some (like cognizability) can be eliminated without too much harm--but try not to design it such that something like toilet paper or something else really silly becomes the currency. haha...