My dad is in the police and I respect the job he does protecting the innocent from criminals who use violence against others to coerce them of their property but at the same time Im an anarcho-capitalist, am I an hypocrite?
Well, does he defend only natural rights, or does he also defend state claims?
btw, I think a descent cop on the force is a marginal improvement over one less descent cop on the force. Personally, I could never swear to uphold the (state's) law.
Felipe: My dad is in the police and I respect the job he does protecting the innocent from criminals who use violence against others to coerce them of their property but at the same time Im an anarcho-capitalist, am I an hypocrite?
Of course not. You can attempt to persuade him of the philosophy of liberty so that he can do good by displacing another liberty-hater that would otherwise fill his position and would use it to do evil on the State's (and/or his own) behalf. Each government official who is converted to the philosophy of liberty is one less government official who will use his powers to deprive others of their natural rights, to the extent he or she is able in a manner consistent with the job description. Most jobs in the government can be occupied in this manner without hypocrisy, only a few jobs are so inherently evil (e.g. working as a CIA leg-breaker) that no person of any moral fiber can perform them. This dilution of State evil is a crucial component of how the State sells itself as a force for good.
Clayton -
Nope, it just means you value people more than ideologies. That is probably a good thing.
What you describe his job as is respectable. On the other hand, does his job not also involve coercing the innocent of their property? A common example might be enforcing state laws against drugs. As much as your dad may be the most well-intentioned, caring guy in the world, libertarian law would almost certainly see him as a criminal.
Sometimes people don't understand that people can act collectively without being collectivist, or own collectively without being socialistic. For a "Libertarian Nuremberg" to take place, it may be likely that people agree to forgive such people as your father, at least in part.
Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave.—Karl Kraus.
That's not the only thing he does at his job. If you're an anarcho-capitalist, do you respect him when he coerces others and tries to take their property?
edit: My pony too slow.
E. R. Olovetto: Felipe: My dad is in the police and I respect the job he does protecting the innocent from criminals who use violence against others to coerce them of their property but at the same time Im an anarcho-capitalist, am I an hypocrite? What you describe his job as is respectable. On the other hand, does his job not also involve coercing the innocent of their property? A common example might be enforcing state laws against drugs. As much as your dad may be the most well-intentioned, caring guy in the world, libertarian law would almost certainly see him as a criminal. Sometimes people don't understand that people can act collectively without being collectivist, or own collectively without being socialistic. For a "Libertarian Nuremberg" to take place, it may be likely that people agree to forgive such people as your father, at least in part.
Most people who haven't worked in law enforcement don't understand the amount of discretion you have in what kind of laws you end up enforcing. It is possible to be a city cop and not make ANY drug arrests (of course sometimes it is unavoidable and many times drugs aren't found until they are taken into custody at the prison). I myself have witnessed other officers that are very pro-drug war destroy drugs they found on people they arrested for other charges because they just didn't feel like filling out the paperwork or because it was getting close to the end of their shift and they didn't want to have to take the drugs downtown and have to get them documented.
"I cannot prove, but am prepared to affirm, that if you take care of clarity in reasoning, most good causes will take care of themselves, while some bad ones are taken care of as a matter of course." -Anthony de Jasay
Maybe you could tell him about Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
Joe: Maybe you could tell him about Law Enforcement Against Prohibition http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
They just told Brad Jardis he can't represent them anymore for saying he would not arrest people for using marijuana for medicinal purposes.
You can see the story on freekeene.com
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
He only protects the innocent from criminals? He doesn't harass peaceful people? Or do you just respect his desire to do good, no matter how misplaced it may be?
Spideynw: Joe: Maybe you could tell him about Law Enforcement Against Prohibition http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php They just told Brad Jardis he can't represent them anymore for saying he would not arrest people for using marijuana for medicinal purposes.
didn't hear about that
Joe:didn't hear about that
Yeah, pretty upsetting to a lot of people. You can see the story on freekeene.com.
ive read that there are 16k to 18k murders in the us every year for several years...over 20k in the 70s i believe. i dont know how many assaults, rapes child abductions etc there are. someone isnt getting protected.
Solid_Choke: Most people who haven't worked in law enforcement don't understand the amount of discretion you have in what kind of laws you end up enforcing. It is possible to be a city cop and not make ANY drug arrests (of course sometimes it is unavoidable and many times drugs aren't found until they are taken into custody at the prison). I myself have witnessed other officers that are very pro-drug war destroy drugs they found on people they arrested for other charges because they just didn't feel like filling out the paperwork or because it was getting close to the end of their shift and they didn't want to have to take the drugs downtown and have to get them documented.
I understand what you are saying, but it sounds like you are ready to paint an all too rosy picture of American police brutality. It speaks to the fact that the monopoly security provider:
A.) doesn't hold to any consistent theory of justice
B.) and even then, doesn't provide the service they advertise at the time
The fact that police serve as "on the spot judges" is interesting in the context of a future free society. How often do police simply destroy the drugs and refrain from jailing a person versus how often they follow the status quo procedure or wink and say, "Hey Joe Dope-Fiend, I am with LEAP you are free to go."? In your scenario, the cop is still destroying property of an innocent drug user. The fact that drugs might be considered bad or there may be other circumstances to make this person be considered as a criminal as well is irrelevant to the matter at hand.
As much as people might not realize a cop's tendency to enforce laws at his whim, they also don't realize the vast corruption of state forces. Moreover, civil legislation exacerbates social problems. The average cop needs at least a slap on the wrist. The overall well-intentioned populace is at the early stages of youth.
Felipe:My dad is in the police
My pop was a pig. I became quite the anti-authoritarian scofflaw. "Rules create thieves". I would like to teach one day now that I am somewhat matured, my greatest obstacle is money and the state. See even if my pop was a good pig he still was employed by a plunderer, the state. I have trouble with any school in any way funded by the state. I refuse to work for a subjugator. I refuse to condone subjugation. I have refused to long to go to the tyrants schools. I require the toiletry of a degree to move on. My pop worked hard for his family and is a decent and contemplative person. It makes me a little sad knowing that he had to hurt folks. I think the state deploys it's despotic hands(pigs) in order to protect and serve the state, not the poor forgotten men that it is subjugating.
Being a pig is a tough job! It's too bad honest folks are weeded out.
Something I'll always remember about crime from him is that "it is usually only stupid people who are caught in crime".
I admire firefighters, too bad they work for the state.
Individualism Rocks
Random thoughts in no particular order.
from Wikipedia:
Hypocrisy is the act of persistently pretending to hold beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually hold.
What are you pretending here? Nothing.
You might have contradictory feelings, but that is universal to humans.
Also, Papa's job is indeed a mixture of good and bad, just like everything else. So what?
Family comes before abstract theoretical systems. Or do we want to be like Soviet Russia, that built museums to honor little kids who rat on their parents?
You can't change Papa. Admire the good he does.
On the other hand don't be blind the "problems" inherent in being a cop. If you are an anarcho- capitalist, you probably don't want to be a cop yourself.
The cause we believe in here is best served by attracting people voluntarily to our way of thinking, where this is possible. Won't get done by telling Papa he's a lackey of the statist imperialist bla bla. Or by breaking up families.
My humble blog
It's easy to refute an argument if you first misrepresent it. William Keizer
E. R. Olovetto: Solid_Choke: Most people who haven't worked in law enforcement don't understand the amount of discretion you have in what kind of laws you end up enforcing. It is possible to be a city cop and not make ANY drug arrests (of course sometimes it is unavoidable and many times drugs aren't found until they are taken into custody at the prison). I myself have witnessed other officers that are very pro-drug war destroy drugs they found on people they arrested for other charges because they just didn't feel like filling out the paperwork or because it was getting close to the end of their shift and they didn't want to have to take the drugs downtown and have to get them documented. I understand what you are saying, but it sounds like you are ready to paint an all too rosy picture of American police brutality. It speaks to the fact that the monopoly security provider: A.) doesn't hold to any consistent theory of justice B.) and even then, doesn't provide the service they advertise at the time The fact that police serve as "on the spot judges" is interesting in the context of a future free society. How often do police simply destroy the drugs and refrain from jailing a person versus how often they follow the status quo procedure or wink and say, "Hey Joe Dope-Fiend, I am with LEAP you are free to go."? In your scenario, the cop is still destroying property of an innocent drug user. The fact that drugs might be considered bad or there may be other circumstances to make this person be considered as a criminal as well is irrelevant to the matter at hand. As much as people might not realize a cop's tendency to enforce laws at his whim, they also don't realize the vast corruption of state forces. Moreover, civil legislation exacerbates social problems. The average cop needs at least a slap on the wrist. The overall well-intentioned populace is at the early stages of youth.
By no means was I trying to downplay the problems of monopoly law enforcement and police brutality. I was just pointing out that in some law enforcement settings it is feasible to enact justice the majority of the time while on the job and simply skip over much of the injustice that you could engage in legally (and it really part of what you are "supposed" to be doing).
Felipe:My dad is in the police and I respect the job he does protecting the innocent from criminals who use violence against others to coerce them of their property but at the same time Im an anarcho-capitalist, am I an hypocrite?
Does being a member of the group called "police" violate the NAP? No.
Can you perform the job functions of a poice officer as we know it without violating the NAP? I don't believe so.
Do you violate the NAP by having a father who does? No.
Is it "good" to voluntarily associate with people who violate the NAP? I don't believe so, but... Easier said than done!
Smiling Dave: Family comes before abstract theoretical systems. Or do we want to be like Soviet Russia, that built museums to honor little kids who rat on their parents?
Or like Oprah. (Had a kid from Iraq on her show that ratted out his pops to the coalition.)
If you aren't a police officer personally, I don't think that would qualify you as a hypocrite. I was in the military for four years, just needed a job!
Jackson LaRose: If you aren't a police officer personally, I don't think that would qualify you as a hypocrite. I was in the military for four years, just needed a job!
Just because you need a job doesn't mean you need to take that job.
You want to pay for my college? I am currently accepting donations.
We might have something to talk about in a year or two, bank run, depending on what subject you're interested in teaching, and your ability to learn the material on your own. Consider sending me a message privately.
On the larger points, I don't think it's necessary to inquire as to the source of an employer's money, and I think a decent person can (try) to be a cop. I just don't think he'll last very long - one or the other will have to give.
MatthewF: Felipe:My dad is in the police and I respect the job he does protecting the innocent from criminals who use violence against others to coerce them of their property but at the same time Im an anarcho-capitalist, am I an hypocrite? Does being a member of the group called "police" violate the NAP? No. Can you perform the job functions of a poice officer as we know it without violating the NAP? I don't believe so. Do you violate the NAP by having a father who does? No. Is it "good" to voluntarily associate with people who violate the NAP? I don't believe so, but... Easier said than done!
I remember something Lew Rockwell wrote along the lines of (I'm paraphrasing) " for far too long we've saw the police as the upholders of rights and justice.At times this is true.But we should also remember that the police are often the enforces of state edicts and are part of it's tyranny too.We have as much reason to distrust the police as the left do." I'll try to find where he wrote it.
The police are a mix of bad and good.Inso far as they protect rights their good but they do so by being funded by taxes so even that isn't really good.When their bad,they're terrible.Someone else said they choose which laws they want to enforce,that just highlights how corrupt they are.The fact they can arrest you for insulting them or swearing or being noisy is worrying too.
I'd have to say possibly in general the police do more bad than good. I think alot more needs to be written about libertarian perspectives on the police ,it's not generally a topic we tend to think about very much especially within minarchist circles.
In answer to the questions posed:
Being in the police force doesnt mean you will violate NAP or rights per se but it's highly likely AND your wages are funded by taxes which isn't good for society .
Can you be a police officer without violating NAP? I don't see how it's possible.I think you'd be sacked.I'd like to see someone try though.
Do you violate the NAP by having a police officer who does? No. We can't help who we're related too and Libertarianism isn't about breaking up families.
You respect your dad and that's admirable.You had issues with his job and that's natural with being a libertarian.I think all libertarians have these sorts of thoughts at times when they know someone who violates NAP who they respect.It's hard.You like/love/respect someone and yet they violate NAP.It's pretty much unresolvable until a free society comes about.
I don't really want to comment or read anything here.I have near zero in common with many of you.I may return periodically when there's something you need to know.
Near Mutualist/Libertarian Socialist.
Scott F:The police are a mix of bad and good.
With respect to Felipe's father, whom I don't know personally, I have always viewed the police as a primary source of the states ability to abuse me. What I mean by that is as follows:
I'm not afraid of my Senator. He participates in a brutal system and helps to make the rules I have to live by. However, I am afraid of the police. They're the one's who will stick a gun in my belly...
I found the quote.
"Lock 'em up
The American right has long held a casual view toward the police power, viewing it as the thin blue line that stands between freedom and chaos. And while it is true that law itself is critical to freedom, and police can defend rights of life and property, it does not follow that any tax-paid fellow bearing official arms and sporting jackboots is on the side of the good. Every government regulation and tax is ultimately backed by the police power, so free-market advocates have every reason to be as suspicious of socialist-style police power as anyone on the left.
Uncritical attitudes toward the police lead, in the end, to the support of the police state"
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/our-kind-central-planning.html
There's also
Why the Innocent flee from the police
There's a blog and a youtube video entitled Don't talk to the police that's quite enlightening.
Well if you only respect that specific part of his jobs maybe you aren't a hypocrite.
But cops are the hitmans/goons or whatever you call it (the word I am looking for is a suitable synonym for soldier rank in the Cosa Nostra) of government. Soo ... your dad is in the mob ... there is really nothing respectable about it.
There are however a few cases that can be made for being more lenient in judgement against cops then mobsters. Cops generally don't know what they are doing and a few of them even have good intentions. Also, at least in my country, there service is better then the mob when one happens to have been the victim of crime.
But you really should convince him to go into private security instead because there is no justification for working in an armed branch of the government. If no one worked there there wouldn't be a government and we would all be much safer. The lack of security created by the government being able to exist because people take jobs like this undo the merit of any security said individuals provide.
Escaping Leviathan - regardless of public opinion
"Democracy is the road to socialism." - Karl Marx
This is such a hard issue to wrestle with. The bottom line is that you can love your dad, believe that he means well, wish his employer was private but still believe he choose the right profession, only to be forced to deal with a monopolistic sector of law enforcement.
Though self-serving on many accounts, as a public school math teacher I often frown on my choice to work for the state. I’ve thought about private schools, but every private school pays about $6,000 less on average then my current job. Sometimes I candy coat the situation by saying that math teachers, on average, do less harm to the general public then history teachers (but this actually a silly notion). It is a source of anger for my philosophy though—though this is my last year teaching.
Read until you have something to write...Write until you have nothing to write...when you have nothing to write, read...read until you have something to write...Jeremiah
Jeremiah Dyke:Though self-serving on many accounts, as a public school math teacher I often frown on my choice to work for the state. I’ve thought about private schools, but every private school pays about $6,000 less on average then my current job. Sometimes I candy coat the situation by saying that math teachers, on average, do less harm to the general public then history teachers (but this actually a silly notion). It is a source of anger for my philosophy though—though this is my last year teaching.
Either it is wrong to work for the state in such institutions as public schools, or it is not. I happen to hold that it is not, but you seem to disagree. If you think it is wrong, why should the money difference be relevant? You could make a lot more money than either job by doing more obviously evil things.
By the way, you might consider boarding schools. Many such schools, of course, have low pay - but provide free housing and meals. Most Austrians fear inflation and a wearing away of wages - getting paid in kind rather than money just makes sense. Plus, your tax load is lower.