Critics against libertarianism in revleft

I know some if not all of this quotes are out of context but I would like to read a response here.

 

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Hoppe:

..the anarchistic upshot of the libertarian doctrine appealed to the countercultural left. For did not the illegitimacy of the state...imply that everyone was at liberty to choose his very own nonaggressive lifestyle? Did this not imply that vulgarity, obscenity, profanity, drug use, promiscuity, pornography, prostitution, homosexuality, polygamy, pedophilia or any other conceivable perversity or abnormality, insofar as they were victimless crimes, were no offenses at all but perfectly normal and legitimate activities and lifestyles?
Quote:
the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism-will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.
Quote:
At all points of entry and along its borders, the GOVERNMENT (emphasis mine), as trustee of its citizens, must check all newly arriving persons for an entrance ticket; that is, a valid invitation by a domestic property owner; anyone not in possession of such a ticket must be expelled at his own expense.
Quote:
...all immigrants must demonstrate through tests not only English language proficiency, but all-around superior (above-average) intellectual performance and character structure as well as a compatible system of values-with the predictable result of a systematic pro-European immigration bias.

Block:

“Consider the sexual harassment which continually occurs between a secretary and a boss . . . while objectionable to many women, [it] is not a coercive action. It is rather part of a package deal in which the secretary agrees to all aspects of the job when she agrees to accept the job, and especially when she agrees to keep the job. The office is, after all, private property. The secretary does not have to remain if the ‘coercion’ is objectionable.”

Rothbard:

"The call of 'equality,'" he wrote, "is a siren song that can only mean the destruction of all that we cherish as being human." Rothbard blamed much of what he disliked on meddling women. In the mid-1800s, a "legion of Yankee women" who were "not fettered by the responsibilities" of household work "imposed" voting rights for women on the nation. Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from "top Jewish financiers," agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The "dominant tradition" of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism. "

Rockwell:

"Rockwell explained the thrust of the idea in a 1990 Liberty essay entitled "The Case for Paleo-Libertarianism." To Rockwell, the LP was a "party of the stoned," a halfway house for libertines that had to be "de-loused." To grow, the movement had to embrace older conservative values. "State-enforced segregation," Rockwell wrote, "was wrong, but so is State-enforced integration. State-enforced segregation was not wrong because separateness is wrong, however. Wishing to associate with members of one's own race, nationality, religion, class, sex, or even political party is a natural and normal human impulse."

Hayek:

"Personally I prefer a liberal dictator to democratic
government lacking liberalism. "

Mises:

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error."

Quotes from Mises.org:

“There’s a good reason the poor are poor, they’re less intelligent than the wealthy.”

“As such, it follows that legitimacy is derived from the claim that the government can help the poor. The poor buy into this as a result of moral and intellectual weakness.”

“Nonetheless we do favour individuals with authority, in the form of a natural elite.”

“If the parents wish to use force, then so be it. The child consents by continuing to live off his parents.”

“Libertarianism doesn’t support equal negative rights, a child does not have the same rights as an adult.”

“This doesn’t imply equal negative rights for adults. Some adults, such as primitives, are not capable of rational argumentation and cannot be brought peacefully into the division of labour. Moreover, they have no conception of property rights nor any enforcable claim.”

“These people (tribal or less developed cultures) simply aren’t capable of rational argumentation, and therefore have no rights, whether this is biological or cultural makes no differences.”

“The fact is they often cannot be brought within the division of labour and without any concept of property rights it’s impossible that they own anything. Moreover they have no legitimate claim to any of this territory and as such it’s free to be homesteaded.”

“People incapable of moral choice must either abide by the decisions of those who are or they must be removed from free society.”

“Against people who have no law, the initiation of force is fully justified.”

“It was not wrong for the spanish to overthrow an empire that literally fed on its slaves in religious rituals and replace it with its much milder form of serfdom.”

“Childish rejection of a natural order and authority isn’t the opposite to subservience. It’s a bad trait that needs to be kept down until the youth have matured sufficiently.”

“A private ruler must respect property rights simply because his wealth depends on clearly defined laws explaining what is, and isn’t legitimate property and how people should act in regards to this.”

“Anarcho capitalism and anarchism are synonomous. Anything that can’t be subsumed under anarcho capitalism, is internally inconsistant, and needs to be thrown out.”

“So long as government commands a monopoly over all land, the closed border position is defensible.”

“It is only reasonable to expect the state to fulfill its duties as a land owner.”

“The only system that would have no borders would be a world government.”

“Seeing as towns would be owned by single entrepreneurs…”

“Why wouldn’t people sell their land to a single entrepreneur? The have no interest in owning land, only in being able to lease it from some owner.”

“There’s nothing new about left-libertarians. They are still the same anti-capitalist who hated big business when Lenin promised to keep control of the commanding heights of the economy.”

“Anybody can benefit from the state and anybody can become a part of it.”

“It’s necessary to remove bad elements from a movement. Which is exactly what the libertarian movement should be doing to non Austrians and the likes of Molyneux. Lenin was exactly right in this regard.”

“Opposition to the family and church sounds somewhat Marxist to me, any libertarian society will be founded upon those two institutions so in a sense yes, one does need to be a cultural conservative to be a libertarian.”

“The state by it’s very nature is egalitarian in the widest sense of the word.”

“The only unifying principle of a secular, multicultural society is the democratic state.”

“Feudalism is actually an entirely appropriate model for anarchist society, and my prediction is it’s coming whether the anarchists like it or not.”

“A system of feudal holdings all competing with each other for human and fiscal capital stacks up pretty good against a system whereby the parasitic majority lives off the productive minority.”

Thanks to Polycentric Order for assembling the collection. All the quotes were taken from the Mises.org forum.

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Were you aware of these quotes? are they real?

It does sound like one of the confusing threads on this board.  You have to take this into account:  most of these were said because someone else disagreed. Meaning there are some people who are very outspoken and have to make sure everyone else knows it.  Plus there was the period where the Hoppe fanbois were a little bit of a fad.  I think most of those were written by Byzantine and Giles Stratton in his Hoppean days.

Also, this isn't Mises, Rothbard, Hayek, or whoever's bible camp.  It's just people who subscribe to their economic ideas; or at least some of them (none can agree with all of them, logically).  Which includes people who drew correct and incorrect conclusions those ideas.

Also, much of these quotes being on display by themselves with no critique wreaks of pandering; as if they are all self-evidently proof of something or other.  Or all wrong.  Which is, frankly, a lazy anti-intellectualism.

Ah, isn't the concept of "fixed ideas over individual freedom" just great?

Thanks for the great post.  It really makes me feel better about my aversion to submission to ideology.

Good ideas can be preverted to justify the greatest atrocities.

Felipe:

“Consider the sexual harassment which continually occurs between a secretary and a boss . . . while objectionable to many women, [it] is not a coercive action. It is rather part of a package deal in which the secretary agrees to all aspects of the job when she agrees to accept the job, and especially when she agrees to keep the job. The office is, after all, private property. The secretary does not have to remain if the ‘coercion’ is objectionable.”

So, sexual harassment as in physically assaulting someone = aggression = bad. Some words can constitute (threat) of aggression. What block means is that for non-aggressive sexual advances, the boss's property rights trumps the employee's counterclaim.

Felipe:

"The call of 'equality,'" he wrote, "is a siren song that can only mean the destruction of all that we cherish as being human." Rothbard blamed much of what he disliked on meddling women. In the mid-1800s, a "legion of Yankee women" who were "not fettered by the responsibilities" of household work "imposed" voting rights for women on the nation. Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from "top Jewish financiers," agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The "dominant tradition" of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism. "

A bad joke? Idk, as an anarchist he opposed voting rights and child labor law.

Felipe:

"State-enforced segregation," Rockwell wrote, "was wrong, but so is State-enforced integration. State-enforced segregation was not wrong because separateness is wrong, however. Wishing to associate with members of one's own race, nationality, religion, class, sex, or even political party is a natural and normal human impulse."

I totally see nothing wrong with this. No one should be forced to associate with anyone they don't want to.

Felipe:

"Personally I prefer a liberal dictator to democratic
government lacking liberalism. "

So he's saying that he'd prefer a 3% tax rate under a king than a 50% tax rate under majority rule.......

Felipe:

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error."

So mises is talking about ECONOMIC fascism, which is characterized by the state funneling resources to specific pet industries, rather than directly taking control of them in communism. In high school, you are taught that fascism means like racist government or something... this is not what mises means.

Felipe:

“As such, it follows that legitimacy is derived from the claim that the government can help the poor. The poor buy into this as a result of moral and intellectual weakness.”

Aren't they lead to believe that stealing can be okay? Doesn't it reek of intellectual dishonesty?

Felipe:

“Nonetheless we do favour individuals with authority, in the form of a natural elite.”

The natural elite are not government positions, rather they are those entrepreneurs who utilize resources most efficiently and so *naturally* rise to *elite* positions in society. Just a confusion of terminology here.

Felipe:

“If the parents wish to use force, then so be it. The child consents by continuing to live off his parents.”

Childhood rights are a bit wonky in libertarian circles. Many of our thinkers chose to adopt something like guardianship rights, which are like homesteading rights except you have to be benevolent towards the child... imo libertarianism gets BS-y on this subject. We all know what the right answer is, and we'll never accept anything that allows parents to molest their children, even consensually.

Felipe:

“This doesn’t imply equal negative rights for adults. Some adults, such as primitives, are not capable of rational argumentation and cannot be brought peacefully into the division of labour. Moreover, they have no conception of property rights nor any enforcable claim.”

Well so the criterion for rights isn't just being human. Presumabely a zebra with human-intelligence would have our full rights, and vice versa. If you take libertarian rights to their logical conclusions, then even ameobas have rights.

Felipe:

“People incapable of moral choice must either abide by the decisions of those who are or they must be removed from free society.”

So if s/he means the libertarian moral, that means if you can't abide by the non-aggression principle, then you can't participate.

Felipe:

“Anybody can benefit from the state and anybody can become a part of it.”

How is this an endorsement of the state....

So overall, I think there are some taken out of context, some terminology confusions, and some people who don't know what they're talking about. I think we have to remember that some of these guys are really old, and can't be role models for 21st century political correctness.

On the other hand, some of the radicals like Block are basically right 100% of the time, even when they say things that the mainstream would quickly accuse of as being callous or racist. Block's problem is that he always says the right thing from his perspective, but doesn't keep in mind all the different ways his opponents could look at it.

But yes, not everything on mises.org is golden.

I bet if someone scoured Revleft they'd find some crazy ass quotes too.

If someone has the will and the patience to reply in revleft here is the thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/libertarians-t126834/index3.html?highlight=libertarianism

I would do it but Im afraid I dont have the stomach for a prolonged struggle.

Because quote-mining out of context is a good argument...

Felipe:

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history. But though its policy has brought salvation for the moment, it is not of the kind which could promise continued success. Fascism was an emergency makeshift. To view it as something more would be a fatal error."

Of course, those who can't attack Austrian theory and its implications resort to obfuscation and taking quotes out of context. During the early part of the last century, there were inter-socialist power struggles all over Europe. You had the national socialists (fascists) and the international socialists (communists). The tension between various socialist ideologies prevented communism from consuming the western world. Mises is saying that the fascist welfare/warfare states aren't as bad as communist states (especially from an economic standpoint), though he adds that they aren't sustainable either (which we see today). Of course, this is before the rise of Hitler; but even then, the Bolsheviks killed far more than the fascists. Liberalism, for the most part, died after world war one.

Felipe:

Rothbard:

"The call of 'equality,'" he wrote, "is a siren song that can only mean the destruction of all that we cherish as being human." Rothbard blamed much of what he disliked on meddling women. In the mid-1800s, a "legion of Yankee women" who were "not fettered by the responsibilities" of household work "imposed" voting rights for women on the nation. Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from "top Jewish financiers," agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The "dominant tradition" of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism. "

This isn't Rothbard, so cite your sources. Though I basically agree with this position.

Felipe:

Hayek:

"Personally I prefer a liberal dictator to democratic
government lacking liberalism. "

Indeed, so do I. The statists find this controversial only because they have elevated democracy to some divine status. This is because they are entirely ignorant of history and are dominated by emotion. Of course, libertarians would prefer no state at all over either option, but that's another story.

All that time they've spent mining quotes, and this is the best they could come up with? Marx and Engles called for the extermination of the entire Slavic race, the expropriation of all property, and agitated one of the most egregious riots in all of human history (1848)--who knows how many were brutally murdered in the streets.

 

bloomj31:

I bet if someone scoured Revleft they'd find some crazy ass quotes too.

Scour? Just click indiscriminately.

JosephBright:

bloomj31:

I bet if someone scoured Revleft they'd find some crazy ass quotes too.

Scour? Just click indiscriminately.

lol good point that forum is craziness.

I bet if I posted anything on Revleft they'd send to their concentration camps.

.

E. R. Olovetto:

I bet if I posted anything on Revleft they'd send to their concentration camps.

 

You would deserve it, you bourgeois, counter-revolutionary enemy of the people

Felipe:

Quotes from Mises.org:

“There’s a good reason the poor are poor, they’re less intelligent than the wealthy.”

“As such, it follows that legitimacy is derived from the claim that the government can help the poor. The poor buy into this as a result of moral and intellectual weakness.”

“Nonetheless we do favour individuals with authority, in the form of a natural elite.”

“If the parents wish to use force, then so be it. The child consents by continuing to live off his parents.”

“Libertarianism doesn’t support equal negative rights, a child does not have the same rights as an adult.”

“This doesn’t imply equal negative rights for adults. Some adults, such as primitives, are not capable of rational argumentation and cannot be brought peacefully into the division of labour. Moreover, they have no conception of property rights nor any enforcable claim.”

“These people (tribal or less developed cultures) simply aren’t capable of rational argumentation, and therefore have no rights, whether this is biological or cultural makes no differences.”

“The fact is they often cannot be brought within the division of labour and without any concept of property rights it’s impossible that they own anything. Moreover they have no legitimate claim to any of this territory and as such it’s free to be homesteaded.”

“People incapable of moral choice must either abide by the decisions of those who are or they must be removed from free society.”

“Against people who have no law, the initiation of force is fully justified.”

“It was not wrong for the spanish to overthrow an empire that literally fed on its slaves in religious rituals and replace it with its much milder form of serfdom.”

“Childish rejection of a natural order and authority isn’t the opposite to subservience. It’s a bad trait that needs to be kept down until the youth have matured sufficiently.”

“A private ruler must respect property rights simply because his wealth depends on clearly defined laws explaining what is, and isn’t legitimate property and how people should act in regards to this.”

“Anarcho capitalism and anarchism are synonomous. Anything that can’t be subsumed under anarcho capitalism, is internally inconsistant, and needs to be thrown out.”

“So long as government commands a monopoly over all land, the closed border position is defensible.”

“It is only reasonable to expect the state to fulfill its duties as a land owner.”

“The only system that would have no borders would be a world government.”

“Seeing as towns would be owned by single entrepreneurs…”

“Why wouldn’t people sell their land to a single entrepreneur? The have no interest in owning land, only in being able to lease it from some owner.”

“There’s nothing new about left-libertarians. They are still the same anti-capitalist who hated big business when Lenin promised to keep control of the commanding heights of the economy.”

“Anybody can benefit from the state and anybody can become a part of it.”

“It’s necessary to remove bad elements from a movement. Which is exactly what the libertarian movement should be doing to non Austrians and the likes of Molyneux. Lenin was exactly right in this regard.”

“Opposition to the family and church sounds somewhat Marxist to me, any libertarian society will be founded upon those two institutions so in a sense yes, one does need to be a cultural conservative to be a libertarian.”

“The state by it’s very nature is egalitarian in the widest sense of the word.”

“The only unifying principle of a secular, multicultural society is the democratic state.”

“Feudalism is actually an entirely appropriate model for anarchist society, and my prediction is it’s coming whether the anarchists like it or not.”

“A system of feudal holdings all competing with each other for human and fiscal capital stacks up pretty good against a system whereby the parasitic majority lives off the productive minority.”

Thanks to Polycentric Order for assembling the collection. All the quotes were taken from the Mises.org forum.

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Were you aware of these quotes? are they real?

I vaguely recall saying some of these things, but I couldn't tell you which ones specifically.

Jackson LaRose:

E. R. Olovetto:

I bet if I posted anything on Revleft they'd send to their concentration camps.

 

You would deserve it, you bourgeois, counter-revolutionary enemy of the people

At least I am not a waste of space.

I vaguely recall saying some of these things, but I couldn't tell you which ones specifically.

What's worst is I cannot even fathom what they hope to prove by quote-mining these... are they really so myopic? Well we should thank them for publicising our arguments to their clueless ilk.

Ah. The good old counter-intellectual Marxist strategy. Discredit Pythagoras to undermine his theorem.

Response to all the quoters: It isn't the origin of an idea that determines it's validity.   That's just about the lowest thinking error one can make.

Felipe:

If someone has the will and the patience to reply in revleft here is the thread:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/libertarians-t126834/index3.html?highlight=libertarianism

I would do it but Im afraid I dont have the stomach for a prolonged struggle.

I think that "Olaf" guy did a pretty good job.

 

Felipe:

... the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism-will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.

This one can be easily put into context. The quote is from Democracy: The God that Failed.

The quote appears at the end of a paragraph where Hoppe argues that, in a libertarian social order, "[t]here can be no tolerance towards democrats and communists[.]" "Likewise," Hoppe continues, "in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin (emphasis added), there can be no tolerance towards those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal." The next sentence is the following quote:

They -- the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism--will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.

The last two words of the above quote may be misleading. However, it can only follow that this particular "libertarian order" was one "founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin[.]"

They really love us over there.

does anyone else find this strangely funny? 

fakename:

does anyone else find this strangely funny? 

Somewhat. I mean the only people who know what revleft is, is us. Really I think this is an attempt to raise revleft forum activity. They insult us, we go over there and put them in their place, they get a vital boost necessary to continue their charade.

Laughing Man:

fakename:

does anyone else find this strangely funny? 

Somewhat. I mean the only people who know what revleft is, is us. Really I think this is an attempt to raise revleft forum activity. They insult us, we go over there and put them in their place, they get a vital boost necessary to continue their charade.

So what you are saying is that they feel lonely and want attention? :P

Esuric:

 

Felipe:

Rothbard:

"The call of 'equality,'" he wrote, "is a siren song that can only mean the destruction of all that we cherish as being human." Rothbard blamed much of what he disliked on meddling women. In the mid-1800s, a "legion of Yankee women" who were "not fettered by the responsibilities" of household work "imposed" voting rights for women on the nation. Later, Jewish women, after raising funds from "top Jewish financiers," agitated for child labor laws, Rothbard adds with evident disgust. The "dominant tradition" of all these activist women, he suggests, is lesbianism. "

This isn't Rothbard, so cite your sources. Though I basically agree with this position.

Yes it is. It comes from  'Orgins of the Welfare State in America':  http://mises.org/story/2225.  Of course I agree with it so I personally dont see the big deal.

The wording and quotes are mostly taken from this 'Intelligence' Report from the Southern Poverty Law Center here.

Daniel Muffinburg:

So what you are saying is that they feel lonely and want attention? :P

sicsempertyrannis:

Yes it is. It comes from  'Orgins of the Welfare State in America':  http://mises.org/story/2225.  Of course I agree with it so I personally dont see the big deal.

The wording and quotes are mostly taken from this 'Intelligence' Report from the Southern Poverty Law Center here.

What I find funny is that they never ask us if this is a correct view to hold and assume that everything authors say is beyond being wrong and yet we are the 'zealots'.

I wonder what the anarchists think about the Southern Poverty Law Center? If they favor more government before the end of government then I suppose they don't have a problem with the state monitoring us?