I need the help of the knowledgeable lot you are.
I am currently trying to piece together an history of the Anti-Car/Individual Transport Mentality in the West, be it the United States, Germany, the UK etc. I need to know who started it, how they managed to rack up so much support, how the State entered the picture and finally how big car companies jumped aboard themselves, hoping to use legislation to make more money and/or keep the Anti-Car crowd off their backs.
Any contribution and book suggestion is welcome!
Can't help you with the history, but it seems to me people don't like cars because they pollute the air, and the difficulty in suing for pollution goes back to government legislation in the 19th century.
Also, population density is a huge factor. Check out all the (mostly private) railways in a 30-by-30 mile area in Tokyo.
Why anarchy fails
AJ: Check out all the (mostly private) railways in a 30-by-30 mile area in Tokyo.
As in Public Private Partnerships (PPP)? Or legitimately private?
AJ: Can't help you with the history, but it seems to me people don't like cars because they pollute the air, and the difficulty in suing for pollution goes back to government legislation in the 19th century.
That's for the people. But why don't the power elites like cars? Don't tell me it has to do with pollution. ;)
A hint is to be found in that in many kingdoms of yore it was illegal for commoners to ride horses, at the very least in the presence of nobles, but sometimes also in general.
Kakugo: I am currently trying to piece together an history of the Anti-Car/Individual Transport Mentality in the West, be it the United States, Germany, the UK etc. I need to know who started it, how they managed to rack up so much support, how the State entered the picture and finally how big car companies jumped aboard themselves, hoping to use legislation to make more money and/or keep the Anti-Car crowd off their backs. Any contribution and book suggestion is welcome!
Where is this "anti-car / individual transport mentality in the west" though? Do you mean recently?
I believe I heard something about this in one of the recent Rothbard lectures? The Great Cooperation? Sorry not sure exactly where. It mentioned Ford, mass production etc... and goes on to talk about the increase in peoples demand / want for "individual transport". Hope that helps somewhat.
Conza88: Where is this "anti-car / individual transport mentality in the west" though? Do you mean recently? I believe I heard something about this in one of the recent Rothbard lectures? The Great Cooperation? Sorry not sure exactly where. It mentioned Ford, mass production etc... and goes on to talk about the increase in peoples demand / want for "individual transport". Hope that helps somewhat.
It may not be as prevalent outside of Europe, but if I'm getting Kakugo right here, I believe he refers to the countless discriminatory policies enacted against car users in EU countries. Examples from where I live:- About 80 cents/litre taxes on gas- Cars are taxed according to their CO2 emissions, formerly according to cubic capacity (just as bad)- A large chunk of these taxes is not used to repair motorways, but to subsidize public transport- Government-sponsored programs are constantly encouraging people to stop using carsPersonally, I think there are two main drives behind it: an aversion against the uncontrollable nature of car traffic, i.e. you can't boss car drivers around as effectively as the publicly transported, at least not yet. And perhaps the bigger motivation: egalitarianism. Driving a sweet car is the most successful way to produce envy. The crusade against cars is just a side battle in the all-around war against inequality.
Sphairon: And perhaps the bigger motivation: egalitarianism. Driving a sweet car is the most successful way to produce envy. The crusade against cars is just a side battle in the all-around war against inequality.
And perhaps the bigger motivation: egalitarianism. Driving a sweet car is the most successful way to produce envy. The crusade against cars is just a side battle in the all-around war against inequality.
Which is why I suppose the people enacting these policies are driven around in expensive darkened window limousines with special license plates.
Marko: Which is why I suppose the people enacting these programmes are driven around in expensive darkened window limousines with special license plates.
Which is why I suppose the people enacting these programmes are driven around in expensive darkened window limousines with special license plates.
You know, the best and brightest of the Communist Party in the USSR also tended to be more equal than everyone else.
Sphairon: Marko: Sphairon: And perhaps the bigger motivation: egalitarianism. Driving a sweet car is the most successful way to produce envy. The crusade against cars is just a side battle in the all-around war against inequality. Which is why I suppose the people enacting these policies are driven around in expensive darkened window limousines with special license plates. You know, the best and brightest of the Communist Party in the USSR also tended to be more equal than everyone else.
Marko: Sphairon: And perhaps the bigger motivation: egalitarianism. Driving a sweet car is the most successful way to produce envy. The crusade against cars is just a side battle in the all-around war against inequality. Which is why I suppose the people enacting these policies are driven around in expensive darkened window limousines with special license plates.
And therefore: war = peace?
Also you will note that there wasn't an anti-car movement in the Soviet Union.
I don't see our conflict, Sir:There are people who fiercely critique others for their behavior while engaging in the very same activites themselves. It is called hypocrisy, and it is quite common among those who would rather have everyone ride a public train for pseudo-egalitarian reasons.If all those who battled for egalitarianism in the political arenas of today were to stick to their words, boy, would we save on public expenditures.
Conza88: AJ: Check out all the (mostly private) railways in a 30-by-30 mile area in Tokyo. As in Public Private Partnerships (PPP)? Or legitimately private?
I was curious, so I did some digging. Besides Japan Railways (privatized in 2002 but still bloated) and the 20 or so subway lines (these are PPPs) at the core, everything else is fully private as far as I know.
Wikipedia:In Japan, private railway (私鉄 or 民鉄, Shitetsu or Mintetsu?) refers to a railway line owned and operated by private sector. Although Japan Railways Group companies are private entities, they are not considered private railways because of their unique status as the successors of the Japanese National Railways (JNR). In a traditional sense, even voluntary sector railways are not included by their origins as the rural, non-profitable JNR line transferred to local possession as a form of joint stock corporation/company (Kabushiki kaisha). Among private railways in Japan, 15 companies are categorized as "major", such as Odakyu, Keikyu, Meitetsu, Tokyu. They are often profitable and less expensive (to ride) than publicly run railways[citation needed]. Private railways also run a variety of other businesses, such as hotels, department stores and real estate.
Among private railways in Japan, 15 companies are categorized as "major", such as Odakyu, Keikyu, Meitetsu, Tokyu. They are often profitable and less expensive (to ride) than publicly run railways[citation needed]. Private railways also run a variety of other businesses, such as hotels, department stores and real estate.
Where it says "citation needed" I can cite, for example if you wanted to go from Shibuya to Yokohama, it's significantly cheaper to take the private Tokyu line than the privatized-in-2002 JR line. Generally though, the price is about double on a public line or JR than on an originally private line. The municipal railways are pretty good, but the former national railway (JR) is full of terrible design and gets delayed constantly. I remember the JR Takasaki line running north from Tokyo into the mountains would be significantly delayed about one in three times, while I don't think I've ever experienced any delays at all the private Tobu Tojo line that runs parallel to it. Oh and the private line is half the price, faster, and the trains are about 50% more frequent. Oh and they also start earlier in the morning and run later at night.
Marko:But why don't the power elites like cars? Don't tell me it has to do with pollution. ;)
They hate our freedoms
I'm only half-joking, because really cars are harder to centrally manage than central transportation like railways, so it leaves less of a role for government. (I suppose.)
Also, isn't this less about getting people to drive less than about justifying the fleecing of car owners via taxes?
assimilateur:Also, isn't this less about getting people to drive less than about justifying the fleecing of car owners via taxes?
Actually this sounds like it. It's not that they are anti-car, but that they will be happy to use the anti-car sentiment of certain environmentalists to justify more taxes and regulations. Just like cap-and-trade for global warming morphed into just more taxes.
The anti-car movement is just a backlash against the pro-car movement that completely remade the landscape around mandatory automobile ownership in the early post-war era.
They have no power whatsoever, at least in comparison to the car lobbies and bureaucracies.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
Legitimate either way.
scineram:Legitimate either way.
In some cases there's a fine line between perseverance and trolling. Yes, we know (even newcomers like me) that being this libertarian forum's token non-libertarian is your shtick, so how about making an argument next time?
Sphairon: I don't see our conflict, Sir:There are people who fiercely critique others for their behavior while engaging in the very same activites themselves. It is called hypocrisy, and it is quite common among those who would rather have everyone ride a public train for pseudo-egalitarian reasons.If all those who battled for egalitarianism in the political arenas of today were to stick to their words, boy, would we save on public expenditures.
The "conflict" is clear. Elitism != egalitarianism. People who want to put plebs in their place by depriving them of independence and confidence provided by a car are not egalitarians. Emperors who made their subject approach them crawling on their belly were not interested in egalitarianism.
AJ: They hate our freedoms I'm only half-joking, because really cars are harder to centrally manage than central transportation like railways, so it leaves less of a role for government. (I suppose.)
What, you mean that anybody at all who has 5,000$ can walk into a privately owned car dealership and get a car?! My, we should put an end to that! Only members of the anointed class and folks with special dispensation from the wise supervisors should be able to go where they want.
Their only problem is they are doing it backwards. They should go to the source and nationalise auto making and distribution. Oh wait... They're doing that too now.
AJ: assimilateur:Also, isn't this less about getting people to drive less than about justifying the fleecing of car owners via taxes? Actually this sounds like it. It's not that they are anti-car, but that they will be happy to use the anti-car sentiment of certain environmentalists to justify more taxes and regulations. Just like cap-and-trade for global warming morphed into just more taxes.
That is exactly what I am investigating at the moment.I need to collect as much material as possible.
Denmark is notorious for having done anything they can to make car ownership as expensive and difficult as possible. The only reason they haven't banned cars altogether is because their giant southern neighbor wouldn't take it very lightly being Europe's premier car manufacturer.Push social engineering and get some easy money as well.
And remember that car manufacturers themselves aren't above joining ranks with their own enemies when they can make a quick buck. One day they'll wake up in horror at their bedfellows but then it will be too late.
Thanks for all entries and please keep them coming.
Kakugo:The only reason they haven't banned cars altogether is because their giant southern neighbor wouldn't take it very lightly being Europe's premier car manufacturer.
Surely, you must be exaggerating. As much as I loathe modern European totalitarian democracies (that's not the compatible with the official definition of the term, but I figure you know what I mean), that sort of thing would be way over the top even for them.
assimilateur: Kakugo:The only reason they haven't banned cars altogether is because their giant southern neighbor wouldn't take it very lightly being Europe's premier car manufacturer. Surely, you must be exaggerating. As much as I loathe modern European totalitarian democracies (that's not the compatible with the official definition of the term, but I figure you know what I mean), that sort of thing would be way over the top even for them.
OK, say you are a Danish and want to own a car. First you need to get a license. The paperwork in itself isn't particularly expensive since all prices are fixed (for example the medical certificate costs 350 krone, less than 50€, from any doctor) but driving and theoretical lessons may be a bit on the steep side. I've heard all sort of horror stories about this part but general agreement is that 1000€ won't be enough to get you rolling, paperwork excluded of course. Motorcycle licenses cost considerably more.
After spending a few thousand euros to get your license (and don't fail: each successive attempt will cost more and more) you may want to consider a car. let's say you have a good paying job and fancy a particular brand new model. You walk into a dealership and ask. The car costs n krone. On top of that you need to pay 25% VAT and, after VAT has been added, there's another 180% "registration tax" on top of the finished price (though the first 45000 krone of value are only taxed at 90%... but which car costs less than that nowadays?). That may make a VW Polo more expensive as a nice BMW 3 series in Germany. If your heart and wallet survived the assault prepare because there's more to come. Yearly ownership tax (I don't want to know how much is that), driving license tax, license plate tax, excise tax on top of fuel plus VAT... that's a bit excessive even by European standards (Germans have many running jokes about the "Communists north of the border").
Until now it may just appear as a blatant attempt to fleece you of as much money as possible. But there's so much more, including: speed cameras everywhere and draconian sanctions, untenable speed limits... In the past few years they have even started restricting carriageways to make room for bicycle paths and to build obstacles to "discourage the use of car".
The place is so car-hating that bikers en route to North Cape (a popular destination) will take infinite troubles to avoid passing through: most will gladly pay and take a ferry from Kiel to Oslo or Goteborg rather than face the notoriously ferocious Danish police and pay their overpriced fuel.
Are still not convinced?
Yipes, I forgot how expensive it is to drive in Japan. $3000 for the mandatory driving school before you can get a license (although foreigners with overseas licenses are exempt). Then expensive and super-strict mandatory inspections every two years, plus all this stuff:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2022.html (Yen figures converted to dollars)
"Owning and operating a car, however, involves numerous expenses. These include compulsory inspections (shaken) every two to three years, various taxes, mandatory and optional insurance, high parking costs in cities, and expensive toll expressways. A liter of gasoline costs roughly $1.10 (April 2009).Shaken is a compulsory safety inspection, which cars in Japan have to undergo every two years, except new cars, for which the first inspection is not due until three years after purchase. The shaken typically costs between $1000 and $2000, and besides the actual inspection includes a weight tax (typically $80 to $500) and a mandatory insurance (about $300).Since the mandatory insurance does not provide full coverage, it is recommended to purchase additional, optional car insurance. Furthermore, there is an annual automobile tax, which depends on the engine size and is typically between $100 and $500, and an acquisition tax to be paid when you buy the car.When acquiring a car, numerous documents have to be filled out, including forms to register your car and to verify ownership of a parking space. If you buy a used car, the process is further complicated by forms regulating the transfer of ownership. "
Since we're all sharing expense stories here:My license: roughly 1800 €, and no, I did not fail the driving exams.Car: 19% VAT on purchase, 250 € car tax a year (for a whopping 1600cc on a diesel), 300 € mandatory insurance a year.Driving: I pay about 3,4 € per 100 km in gas taxes, which makes for about 340 € on my expected 6000 miles a year.Maintenance: mandatory safety and emissions checkup every two years, 70 €.Bottom line: Americans win again.
Sphairon: Since we're all sharing expense stories here:My license: roughly 1800 €, and no, I did not fail the driving exams.Car: 19% VAT on purchase, 250 € car tax a year (for a whopping 1600cc on a diesel), 300 € mandatory insurance a year.Driving: I pay about 3,4 € per 100 km in gas taxes, which makes for about 340 € on my expected 6000 miles a year.Maintenance: mandatory safety and emissions checkup every two years, 70 €.Bottom line: Americans win again.
I doubt this is caused by the anti-car lobby. Usually it is the driving school and insurance lobbies that get these regulations passed.
Kakugo:Are still not convinced?
I never questioned that the Danish government was fleecing car owners (probably every government does, but from what you said Denmark is especially bad), I just balked at your statement that the only reason they didn't ban cars was to appease the Germans. That was either hyperbole or a gross exaggeration of the government's power and malice.
It is environmentalist mentality, not anti-car mentality. Environmentalists think that everyone should ride bikes and 90% of the human popualtion should be wiped out, if not 100%.
Caley McKibbin:if not 100%.
You probably meant that as a joke, but there actually are lunatics who propose just that. Or perhaps they are joking? It's hard to tell on the face of it, and I'm not willing to delve into that topic to find out.
assimilateur: Caley McKibbin:if not 100%. You probably meant that as a joke, but there actually are lunatics who propose just that. Or perhaps they are joking? It's hard to tell on the face of it, and I'm not willing to delve into that topic to find out.
I was not joking and that is not nearly the only example.
They seem pretty serious. Maybe all environmentalists will voluntarily become extinct. That'd be nice.
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.—Ludwig von Mises
Life and reality are neither logical nor illogical; they are simply given. But logic is the only tool available to man for the comprehension of both.
assimilateur: Kakugo:Are still not convinced? I never questioned that the Danish government was fleecing car owners (probably every government does, but from what you said Denmark is especially bad), I just balked at your statement that the only reason they didn't ban cars was to appease the Germans. That was either hyperbole or a gross exaggeration of the government's power and malice.
They even went as far as saying restricting carriageways and building obstacles (speed bumps etc) in the middle of nowhere are made "to discourage the use of cars"... that's about as far as they can go without banning them. Remember Louis XIV used a similar approach with Protestants until he felt strong enough to take on the United Provinces, the Protestants' strongest and most influential patron.Then he simply forced them to convert to Catholicism. Denmark will never be strong enough to take on Germany so they have to put a muzzle on their bizarre social engineering projects.
Anyone's got any valid lead on some book/website?