I agree with most of what Ron has to say and support him for 08. Unfortunately it seems most RP supporters only care about his opposition to the war in Iraq, and arent even aware of any of his libertarian stances. I see many posts for RP on youtube like this "you Glenn are the WORST thing that ever happen to America, and Canada would NEVER let you speack on TV." This is in favor of government censorship, something RP would never agree with, and too many pro RP posts have the same message. Also the fact that 90%(made up) of his supporter's seem to believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theories is a little disturbing.
Can we fix this? it's giving a bad name to all the "true" RP supporters.
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ChaseCola:Also the fact that 90%(made up) of his supporter's seem to believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theories is a little disturbing.
Also the fact that 90%(made up) of his supporter's seem to believe in the 9/11 conspiracy theories is a little disturbing.
You'd rather they believe in the government's version?
Osama bin Laden did not mastermind anything.
Peace
I agree with Bostwick, but I also can't help but agree with Inquistor concerning the effects of public schooling, which, when I last checked, did not involve properly teaching logic nor argument correctly, let alone history.RP is dead on concerning "blowback", but it also not out of the question that there an obvious problems with the government's veresion, which is why a through, non-partisan investigation should be done, as advocated by Kucinich (and most likley RP). However, the generlization of 90% of RP suporters all beleiving in this truther 911 stuff is ridiculous & possibly collectivist. It's more reasonable to see that some supoprters are more vocal than others, and sometimes the most vocal get the most coverage and/or attention.
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
As I said in another thread, the vast majority of people are stupid and only respond to leadership, not rationality.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
So this justifies elitism towards RP supporters? Not all of them are like that; some will move on beyond RP and discover the rest of the libertarian online prescenc, whereas it's not hard to imagine others wouldn't based on the elitism other libertarians will show against them for possibly not knowing everything. Others may not do any of that, obviously, but still. I hardly see how elitism will help anyone out here.
Nitroadict:Not all of them are like that; some will move on beyond RP and discover the rest of the libertarian online prescenc,
What I find striking is how Ron Paul's campaign ads have emphasized his war stance. In fact, the ad campaign doesn't seem to have much to do with the real views of Ron Paul at all-- foreign or domestic policy. I haven't been involved at all, but I gather that this fact demoralized many of his supporters at the grass roots.
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You're not the only one who has noticed. The RP campaign (the people running it) seem to be dubious at this point... I'm considerably more indifferent towards the campaign, but still think ultimatley it will lead to good things; for instance, the local movements for associated candidates (concerning more Libertarian and/or The Old Right viewpoint) to get into congress / the senate.
the 9/11 truthers are just more vocal then the passive supporters. If you read the ronpaulforums you'll know this. There are huge divisions on 9/11 truthers. Many..including myself despise the truthers because they are making Libertarianism synonymous with loony kook. However I've found a lot of RP supporters are bible thumpers as well so their is a fair amount of idiocy. Also some of them are even more statist then the average american.
ChaseCola:I agree with most of what Ron has to say and support him for 08. Unfortunately it seems most RP supporters only care about his opposition to the war in Iraq, and arent even aware of any of his libertarian stances.
Because war is the biggest big government program of them all. Socialized health care would suck but I'm young and fairly healthy. A war could mean getting drafted and the loss of liberties that generally come during war time effects everyone.
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Nitroadict: So this justifies elitism towards RP supporters? Not all of them are like that; some will move on beyond RP and discover the rest of the libertarian online prescenc, whereas it's not hard to imagine others wouldn't based on the elitism other libertarians will show against them for possibly not knowing everything. Others may not do any of that, obviously, but still. I hardly see how elitism will help anyone out here.
I am one of those who has moved on beyond RP. With out him my libertarian readings would have stopped with Harry Browne, but because of RP I have read a few books on Austrian Economics. I participate more on the RP forum then I do here because I don't have much to add. I enjoy reading through the posts here though.
I took slight offense to the OP assertion that all RP suporters are stupid. I prefer the term ignorant.
I think Ron Paul has definitely helped spread libertarian views. My only issue is that sometimes he sounds like he just believes states are better at making certain decisions or performing certain functions; but even despite this, he's done an amazing job of spreading the word on many issues. Heck, he's made 'libertarian' a good word! (Unless this has happened simultenously over the past few years anyway) However, on monetary policy, he has definitely spread the word about real money and ending the Federal Reserve.
In fact, I'd like to refer to what I saw on "Glenn Beck" just a few nights ago, in what was the greatest moment in the history of the mainstream media. His guest, "Liberal Fascism" author Jonah Goldberg, was talking about corruption in the Wilson administration, when Glenn Beck asserted "Yeah, and you know he got us the Federal Reserve, too."
:)
[Start Edit]Preface:
Before the start of the revolution I was a registed and voting Democrat - I would have registed Communist if the party had a chance. My view was entirely of the social works viewpoint - I had admired to no small extent the benefits that the USSR's form of goverment had bestowed up its people. 'Social Liberal' I would think to myself and smile. Economics were for economists - I had been poorly educated and sorrowfuly distracted. I had one uncommon advantage though: I wasn't dumb, I just didn't know. As I youtube'd the gospel of Paul I learned of Rockwell and from there onto Mises. My internal thesaurus was given one tiny edit: New synonym; Economist=Humanitarian. Since then I have read Paul, Plato, Socrates, Jefferson, Colbert, Rockwell. Menkin, Mises, and Stewert (yes, that's Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewert). The revelation had left a hole in the social sciences part of my mind. Long story short- I'm now a 'fiscal conservative' and a realize that 'social liberal' is an unattainable ideal without good economics.
[End Edit]
On 9/11:
Of course there was a 9/11 conspiricacy. It certainly wasn't some random unplanned event! The 'terrists conspired and suceeded and finishing 'My Pet Goat' was more important than decisive action. The Osama video that followed had a chubby jewelry wearing right-hander who certainly was NOT Osama. Since the Osama video wasn't really Osama we should look at the other suspicious parties: The Isreali nationalists who were on top of another building getting the first crash on film, and Georgie who said he saw the first plane hit on TV.
On ignorance:
I blame water fluoridation. Although fluoride works fine when directly applied to teeth it certainly has alot of unhealthy side effects. Water fluoride plus a low sodium diet (we need the iodine from salt to counter the fluoride) causes thyroid problems at as little as 0.7L a day water intake for grown men. That pea-sized amount of toothpaste is 'harmful or fatal if swallowed' due to the drug fluoride - so why are we swallowing it? Fluoride, television, and govenment run education.
jtucker: What I find striking is how Ron Paul's campaign ads have emphasized his war stance. In fact, the ad campaign doesn't seem to have much to do with the real views of Ron Paul at all-- foreign or domestic policy. I haven't been involved at all, but I gather that this fact demoralized many of his supporters at the grass roots.
Since you are probably one of the few people that know his real views, what are they? Is he a closet anarcho-capitalist?
ChaseCola:Since you are probably one of the few people that know his real views, what are they? Is he a closet anarcho-capitalist?
The only thing (that I'm aware of) that would me say no is his position on securing the borders. But since he lives in Texas he probably has to say that even if he doesn't nessessarily believe it inorder to keep getting elected. I know in the 80's when he ran for president under the Libertarian Party banner he was against closed borders. But he's since changed his position. Probably because he's afraid of the North American Union (and the NAFTA Superhighway) and hopes that if we can secure the borders and fight against amnesty for illegal immigrants it would be the lesser of the two evils. I'd probably have to agree. I'd rather have closed borders than an EU style international government between America, Canada, and Mexico.
Also many of these Hispanic immigrants coming into the country from Mexico seem to have a tendency leaning towards collectivism and left wing politics. During the Great American Boycott a few years ago I saw a lot of the Hispanic protesters carrying posters with pictures of Che Guevera. What would be the libertarian solution to large amounts of people coming into your country who are opposted to the free market?
I heard Paul was quoted saying "read Lysander Spooner" and is a fan of Rothbard.
Thats absolutely true. Ron Paul in my opinion is probably Rothbardian but has chosen the secure the borders stance because of the looming NAU. He is against the Texas Trans Corridor and he knows about land being taken through eminent domain in Texas. So I believe his stance would change if the NAU wasn't so close to becoming reality.
ChaseCola:
I don't think it's a surprise that Ron Paul admires Rothbard. Didn't Rothbard assist Paul in learning Austrian Economics? Weren't they friends? Weren't they both co-founders of the institute? That's what I had thought at least. Maybe I've heard and read wrong; if that is so, let me know jtucker.
I might be wrong about the founding of the institute, I can't remember where I heard that. But in the first ten minutes of Ron Paul's "Personal View on Mises and Austrian Economics" he mentions Sennholz and Rothbard as friends and instructors. Here's the link:
http://mises.org/multimedia/mp3/audiobooks/MisesPersonalView.mp3