Agorists, could you help me understand something?

I find it odd that one would put so much urgency upon one individual's actions (in this case, Niccolo's differing conduct compared to your own) as if he jeopardizes the entire concepts of Agorism, especially when the thing you are objecting to is his conduct & "hyper aggressive strong man sales approach", and has nothing to do with contradicting the principles of Agorism (to my knowledge, a strong man sales approach does not violate nonviolent direct action, or natural rights, or anything else aside from different opinions of personal conduct).

Obviously, one could hold a view of something, but that does not make the view itself empirically true at all (the same goes for my opinion & your opinion of Niccolo's effect on Agorism as well).     

Truth is not determined by consensus; I still don't see what harm Niccolo is currently doing to anything other than challenging opinions that are not his own, with words that some may not agree with.

Ego:

should people be punished for voting?

They should have their nipples tweaked with red-hot tongs!

But in the spirit of voluntarism, I'd be fine with them choosing instead to be forced to watch Pauly Shore movies, A Clockwork Orange-style, for 48 hours without bathroom breaks.

Ego:

should people be punished for voting?

Nay!  Off with their heads, I say!  The whole lot o' them! 


But seriously, it would be a bit contradictory for me to punish people for simply not sharing my own apolitical views on achieving liberty outside of the state, and choosing politicals means via voting. 

That doesn't prevent a good debate & discussion about said topics; though, some probably would think that in itself would be a form of punishment for voting, but I digress.

Punishment for voting would be as absurd as Pauly Shore locking you up in the Bio-Dome because you contributed to his crash to obscurity by also contributing to too much of his previous fame because you could not stop going to the threatre to see Bio-Dome despite telling my friends I hated that movie with a passion.


p.s. MacFall: nothing wrong with encino man & bio-dome, buh-ddy.

liberty student:

If Agorism needs a hyper aggressive "strong man" sales approach, then maybe it's not sellable on its own merits.

No product sells itself.  As Mises said, even superior ideas must be heralded and disseminated, which can only be done through leadership.  The ability to sell (i.e. communicate the beneficial aspects of your "product" in such a way that the "customer" becomes excited and buys in) is a critical component of leadership.  I think Niccolo has potential and will be keeping an eye on him.

liberty student:

If Agorism needs a hyper aggressive "strong man" sales approach, then maybe it's not sellable on its own merits.

So, basically,

Don't go with what works to create additional membership - as I have berated you, Niccolo for on the past couple of pages - but rely on the message "selling itself."

 

Ok.

liberty student:

Your anecdotal evidence of success is based on the people who contacted you, not on all of the people who didn't, and likely won't.

How good is your english? Mon est moyen.

 

What didn't you understand about,

C. If it were an issue of, "HAHAHAHA, I have more recruits then you do, nahnahnahnahanahanah!" I'd just point you to some of the e-mails I've received about people interested in Agorism.

 

However, I am not interested in that. I am interested in refuting arguments against Agorism - as to appear more competent and decisive on the issue than my opponents. Why do I do this? Because it is what attracts the most people, like it or not.

If I also wanted to go down the path of C, I could even introduce you to my developing Agorist cell in my locale. However, again, I do not care about convincing you that I can recruit just as competantly as you can, you great poet, you.

 

Ego:

Come on guys, let's keep the argument going a bit more! We're almost to 200 replies! A site record!

 

Oh man! Did we win?

You better hope your "cell" doesn't get too big or too well known! You might have the government busting your doors down for subversion.

Ego:

You better hope your "cell" doesn't get too big or too well known! You might have the government busting your doors down for subversion.

 

*boinks the neo-bolshevik jews*

Nitroadict:

Truth is not determined by consensus; I still don't see what harm Niccolo is currently doing to anything other than challenging opinions that are not his own, with words that some may not agree with.

If you really believe there are no negative consequences in social relationships from acting like a (insert pejorative here), that's cool.

I actually find it odd that you would spend so many words defending the tactic.  Can I assume this is also a technique you have used to spread the liberty message?

Let's get serious for a minute.  Most people don't communicate like that online, and I'd say very few don't communicate like that offline.

It's contrived, or Niccolo really has a hard time just being, pleasant.  If it's attention we're after, maybe he could wear a cape, and become AgoraMan!  That would certainly be an attention grabber, and everyone is attracted to a super hero.  :)

 

 

maxpot46:

I think Niccolo has potential and will be keeping an eye on him.

I agree.  But please keep both eyes on him.  Redundancy is security.

 

Niccolò:

So, basically,

Don't go with what works to create additional membership - as I have berated you, Niccolo for on the past couple of pages - but rely on the message "selling itself."

Ok.

Do you really believe the ends justify the means?  I thought that was the argument against using political power to achieve apolitical goals.

A good message, communicated properly, is inspiring.  Look at what Ron Paul's been able to do with an appealing message?  Record breaking fund raising, big rallies, dominating the web.  Wouldn't you like to tap into that sort of energy?

It's possible if you take one thing from him.  Freedom brings us together, despite our differences.

Niccolò:

How good is your english? Mon est moyen.

What didn't you understand about,

C. If it were an issue of, "HAHAHAHA, I have more recruits then you do, nahnahnahnahanahanah!" I'd just point you to some of the e-mails I've received about people interested in Agorism.

However, I am not interested in that. I am interested in refuting arguments against Agorism - as to appear more competent and decisive on the issue than my opponents. Why do I do this? Because it is what attracts the most people, like it or not.

If I also wanted to go down the path of C, I could even introduce you to my developing Agorist cell in my locale. However, again, I do not care about convincing you that I can recruit just as competantly as you can, you great poet, you.

Sorry, I didn't mean to push your English.  I can keep my level of conversation moyen.  :)

I'm not here to recruit.  I'm here to learn and share what I know.  But please consider, there isn't a lot of value in alienating people, to create a scene, to gain attention.  I might have resources you need.  I might have a great idea to promote agorism.  I might be the best ally you will ever find.  But if you use me to gain attention, you might not discover those things, and lose out on an opportunity.

I'll leave you alone on this.  If you still think it is effective then continue as you were. I understand you are doing it without malice.

liberty student:

Do you really believe the ends justify the means?  I thought that was the argument against using political power to achieve apolitical goals.

First, these means are not physically coercive means, so yes.

Second, that is not the argument against using political power - at least not for me. The argument is that political action is self-defeating at best and counter-productive at worst.

liberty student:

A good message, communicated properly, is inspiring.  Look at what Ron Paul's been able to do with an appealing message?  Record breaking fund raising, big rallies, dominating the web.  Wouldn't you like to tap into that sort of energy?

First, I do not believe that Ron Paul is at all the reason behind the Ron Paul phenomenon. He's a body, that's all and he has indicated a knowledge about this numerous times - despitethe cult confines others would like to put him in.

 

Second, I do not want to tap into "that energy" because it is a counter-productive one. It will lead to the libertarian movement's greatest fall if it continues.

It's possible if you take one thing from him.  Freedom brings us together, despite our differences.

liberty student:

Sorry, I didn't mean to push your English.  I can keep my level of conversation moyen.  :)

I'm not here to recruit.  I'm here to learn and share what I know.  But please consider, there isn't a lot of value in alienating people, to create a scene, to gain attention.  I might have resources you need.  I might have a great idea to promote agorism.  I might be the best ally you will ever find.  But if you use me to gain attention, you might not discover those things, and lose out on an opportunity.

I'll leave you alone on this.  If you still think it is effective then continue as you were. I understand you are doing it without malice.

 

If you feel alienated by words on the internet, then you are far too sensitive for my tastes anyways.

liberty student:

If you really believe there are no negative consequences in social relationships from acting like a (insert pejorative here), that's cool.

 

Let's get serious for a minute.  Most people don't communicate like that online, and I'd say very few don't communicate like that offline.

 

IME the sarcastic strongman approach works with other young, independent-minded men who find it "cool".  So if that's who Niccolo is trying to recruit, it seems a valid approach.  For everyone else, I agree that this approach is highly counter-productive.

Heh, along those lines, here's a story about the marines trying to recruit women:  http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/business/media/21adcol.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=business&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1208881448-RNLYmhCj7k106+gFH2ajFw

 

Niccolò:

First, these means are not physically coercive means, so yes.

So you're saying that coercion can only be physical?

Niccolò:

Second, that is not the argument against using political power - at least not for me. The argument is that political action is self-defeating at best and counter-productive at worst.

Just another way of wording what I wrote.  Your strategy (in my opinion) is self-defeating at best, and counter-productive at worst.  You're trying to attract quantity by exploiting quality.

Niccolò:

First, I do not believe that Ron Paul is at all the reason behind the Ron Paul phenomenon. He's a body, that's all and he has indicated a knowledge about this numerous times - despitethe cult confines others would like to put him in.

That's irrelevant.  I'm talking about Ron Paul being the cause of the phenomenon.  I'm talking about the phenomenon itself.

Niccolò:

If you feel alienated by words on the internet, then you are far too sensitive for my tastes anyways.

Well, I didn't come here to put up with what I can find on a Sean Hannity or DailyKOS forum.  I've been around the internet long enough to know where to find flame wars and bad attitudes.

I hope to learn something from you, maybe share something in return.

I just wrote a response and then accidentally back tracked to the previous page. I hate forums where if you do this, everything is erased.

 

In Firefox, hitting "enter" into a Quick Reply form causes the form to lose focus (among other things, like spamming the form down the screen). Since the form loses focus, hitting "backspace" goes to the previous page. What makes it so sinister is that the natural reaction is to hit backspace when you see that the newline you just entered messed up the form.