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Are Non-Misesian Austrians Too Lazy or Too Statist?

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Ricky James Moore II posted on Sun, Feb 6 2011 9:43 PM

I was reading the Market Financial today and came across this post from last month:

 

Mises v. Hayek v. Boudreaux

Recently Cafe Hayek’s Don Boudreaux put up a list of his top ten economists. There was one glaring omission: Ludwig von Mises. I was absolutely bowled over by this. He mentions a lot of fine economists, with Friedrich von Hayek his number one choice. When asked about Mises he says:

Don: Mises has just never done it for me. I love his 1922 book Socialism, and his book Liberalism. He was a damn good economist, no doubt.

Reader: Have you read “Human Action?”

Don: Yep. Snooze.

I don’t know what to say other than that Boudreaux just slipped about 10 notches down on my list of respected economists. I hate to do that because he is one of the most prominent economists and figures in Austrian theory economics. I am a big fan of his “letters from Don,” his constant stream of letters to editors and his defense of free trade. Other than that I haven’t read any of his major works.

Here is my comment on the subject from Cafe Hayek:

Mises contributions to the intellectual foundations of social sciences and economics, as pointed out above were without peer. Think of his writings on epistemology as kind of a unified field theory of human action. But the problem with Mises was, well, Mises. He was known to be uncompromising, rigid, and one not to suffer fools lightly. Friedman commented on Mises in a deprecating way: at a Mont Pelerin Society meeting, Mises called many of his fellow attendees “socialists.” Also, Friedman said to effect that he (Mises) said you could know things just from theory. Imagine that. Well, Milton was wrong, his monetary theory was wrong, and he no understanding of epistemology. I greatly admire his defense of free markets and his role in the popular media, but, let’s face it, he was a monetary interventionist, the equivalent of economic central planning through the Fed. If you read Hulsmann’s bio of Mises, a great intellectual achievement in itself, you will get a sense of the man: fierce dedication to intellectual rigor and a desire to achieve truth above all else in his life. I don’t mean this to sound like a Mises hagiography, but I think his intellectual achievements were far superior to Hayek, and I agree with the commentators who say without Mises, there would have been no Hayek or Rothbard. I think Don and the others who think Mises is boring have just missed the point. That is, Mises is difficult, Old School, and hard to get into. Hayek is far more approachable. A great economist to be sure, but, as pointed out above, what did he contribute in economics that wasn’t founded on Mises?

It made me wonder: why do so many 'Austrians' stick to the inferior Hayekian analysis when they have to be aware of Mises? It is not even that they seem to disagree with Mises, it is more like they have never even read him. They typically have no interest in substantive analysis of methodology or epistemology in economics even though this is key to the difference between Austrian and mainstream economics. Instead they seem to practice 'economics' solely from the angle of technocratic policy recomenndations.

Is the divide caused by intellectual laziness or a simple aversion to radicalism which causes them to take up the sometimes social-democratic views of Hayek as against Mises?

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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Coase replied on Tue, Feb 8 2011 12:31 PM

People who have read Hayek would understand that it is Menger, not Mises, who separates Austrians from other schools of thought.

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@Coase

yes, Menger is the founder of Austrian Economics but Menger only applied micro-framework...  Mises went further and applied macro framework into the Austrian school... more specifically, he talked about money, alot...  he then merged his idea on money with Bawerk's idea of interest to come up with the beginning stages of the Austrian Business Cycle, which explains Capitol theory on a marco and micro level... Hayek took Mises theoy on the cycle and explained it further.... As Rothbard puts it Mises "healed the artifical split [macro & micro split] and made micro and marco one whole beautiful intregrative system of economic analysis." I would suggest listening to this http://mises.org/media/961/Mises-in-One-Lesson

My Blog: http://www.anarchico.net/

Production is 'anarchistic' - Ludwig von Mises

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"Isaac "Izzy" Marmolejo wrote the following post at 02-06-2011 11:40 PM: I disagree with Hayek's conclusions on many things but the Hayekian frame work can clearly be just as radical as a Miseian framework or a Rothbardian framework"

Are you implying it's good to be radical for its own sake?

Also, what is radical about Mises?

 

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1) No, the point I was getting across is that we shouldn't judge Hayek on his conclusions, we look at his framework. And from there one can be a minarchist or anarchist. People could do the same thing with Rothbard, for example. There are Rothbardians that are minarchists (Ron Paul) and Rohbardians that are anarchists...

2) The Mises framework can be very radical, just look at Mises' most famous follower, Rothbard.

My Blog: http://www.anarchico.net/

Production is 'anarchistic' - Ludwig von Mises

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DD5 replied on Tue, Feb 8 2011 2:44 PM

I believe the OP refers to the economic contributions of Mises as oppose to Hayek.  Not who is more compatible with Anarchism or whatever. 

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Yes but the OPs ost is criticizing Mises conclusions and not Mises framework

My Blog: http://www.anarchico.net/

Production is 'anarchistic' - Ludwig von Mises

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I am going to go out on a limb and guess that Ricky James Moore is a duplicate account someone made to parody austrian stereotypes. 

i mean, he made a multiple page thread to argue about who is and who is not a "true" libertarian, now he creates a thread deliberately discounting Don Bourdeux as an economist simply because he doesn't rank Mises highly enough in his personal list of "greatest economists" (not on anything of substance said Bourdeux actually said)??? REALLY!? 

If this is not a joke account, I appologize. Please continue this meta-discusion psychologizing the motives of people that disagree with you (as opposed to addressing their actual arguments). This will be a very productive discussion, I'm sure. 

Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine - Elvis Presley

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"not on anything of substance said Bourdeux actually said"

I thought he said "snooze" to Human Action.

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he didnt say it was untrue....

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

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yes, Menger is the founder of Austrian Economics but Menger only applied micro-framework...  Mises went further and applied macro framework into the Austrian school... more specifically, he talked about money, alot...  he then merged his idea on money with Bawerk's idea of interest to come up with the beginning stages of the Austrian Business Cycle, which explains Capitol theory on a marco and micro level...

Actually Wicksell did this. Mises just made a few relatively minor alterations/corrections. Additionally, the pure time preference theory of interest was first introduced by Frank Fetter.

"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."

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Supposing I agree with your argument it is nonetheless the case that many Hayekians can not seem to tell the difference between the calculation problem (without prices one can not conceptually make forecasts of profitability) and the knowledge problem. The former is logically insoluable, the latter is not.

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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Ricky James Moore II:

Supposing I agree with your argument it is nonetheless the case that many Hayekians can not seem to tell the difference between the calculation problem (without prices one can not conceptually make forecasts of profitability) and the knowledge problem. The former is logically insoluable, the latter is not.

Many Hayekians* would say that this is a strawman. 

What do you think is the difference between 'calculation' and 'knowledge'? And can you proof the assertion that these Hayekians indeed confuse the two based on actual writings (or lectures) of them? 

*The people generally associated with the GMU crowd. 

The state is not the enemy. The idea of the state is. 

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The former is logically insoluable, the latter is not.

I don't know what this means.  Hayek's knowledge problem is wrong?  You can make the argument, and I think accurately, that Hayek's "knowledge problem" is lost without Mises's calculation problem (and I think Hayek would come to agree, since Hayek was building off of Mises's calculation problem and the progress the debate had undergone in the decades between mid-1920 and the early 1940s), but I don't think Hayek's knowledge problem is not logically rigorous or is wrong.

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Calculation is about the possibility of making forecasts as to profitability. It is not conceptually possible to do so without money and a capital market. It has nothing to do with knowledge, or the dispersion of knowledge, or Kirznerian 'seeing opportunities'. In fact, Kirzner is wrong in his formulation of the entrepreneur in general...Peter Klein is far superior.

Joseph T. Salerno makes exactly my point in many articles.

I will break in the doors of hell and smash the bolts; there will be confusion of people, those above with those from the lower depths. I shall bring up the dead to eat food like the living; and the hosts of dead will outnumber the living.
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