(Cross-posted on the Mises Blog)
This is brilliantly done. Topic for discussion: what is Papola (who, it is clear now, is a creative genius) trying to say by structuring the outcome of the fight the way he does? The way Hayek's "Who plans for whom?" question is worked in as a lyric is superb. The question is the topic of an entire chapter in Road to Serfdom, which is the subject of an upcoming Mises Academy course.
Clayton:Keynes is simply portrayed as an arrogant, cocksure academic rather than the handmaiden of the State that he was; a neo-mercantilist.
In which case, Hayek is a mouthpiece for big corporations and against the working man and blah blah blah. It's best to avoid that kind of accusation, especially when the medium doesn't allow much nuance. How would you even present the idea, and how could that representation not be turned back against Hayek?
Keynes is simply portrayed as an arrogant, cocksure academic rather than the handmaiden of the State that he was; a neo-mercantilist.
yah. papola's portrait of keynes left me cold too. where were the fangs? the claws?
talk about pulling his punches.
Ambition is a dream with a V8 engine - Elvis Presley
anyways, for reals:
i thought the video was fun. but like other people in this thread, i was disappointed it wasn't really about keynes' view of business cycles and hayek's. it was instead about central planning v. markets. and keynes was not actually an advocate of central planning. so the figures chosen for the fictious debate are a bit off.
well, that is unless you want to dilute the meaning of the term "central planning" to mean any and all government intervention in the economy. and in that case hayek was equally an advocate of "central planning". so the casting is still wrong.
kevin drum makes good points: http://www.frumforum.com/dont-get-punked-keynes-won-this-rap-battle
AHAHAHA They still don't get it. Hayek's response is not to do "nothing", it's to let individuals do something according to their own desires and needs. The point is that the state doesn't need to do anything, in fact it just creates more problems even with "just" massive injections of credit from central banks.
^ that's oversimplifying what hayek's true response would be.
http://hayekcenter.org/?p=1240
videos like this perpetuate the vulgar austrian view that any and all monetary interventions will automatically lead to distortions in the capital structure. that is not what hayek thought at all.
They need to make a speedmetal song by Mises covering the Economic Calculation Problem
lol, I don't think that lends itself to more lyrical forms of music.
Opera would be funny as hell though, with Hayek as a tenor and Keynes as a bass / baritone. Or would it be the other way around?
Student:kevin drum makes good points: http://www.frumforum.com/dont-get-punked-keynes-won-this-rap-battle
Papola's answer in the comments to that:
"johnpapola // Apr 30, 2011 at 11:58 am
Regarding the criticisms of “planning” in our film…
Keynesianism has a much closer intellectual, methodological and historical connection to central planning than your post or modern keynesians wish to acknowledge.
First off, our “Keynes” is not meant to be an exact replication of the historical Keynes. Such a thin is impossible. How, for example, could our Keynes talk about the Great Recession, given that he’s been dead since 1946? It’s called “creative license”. Our “Hayek” isn’t a pure Hayek either. There’s a ton of Robert Higgs in our “Hayek” verses regarding WWII. But that’s also besides the central point. There’s much more to our lyrics and I really have no need to pull the “creative license” card at all.
Our “Keynes” is an amalgam of the Keynesian view as we see it. Keynes did go much farther than a narrow technocratic goal of nominal spending stabilization (something which Hayek had actually also advocated via monetary policy aka nominal income targeting). Keynes also called for the complete “socialization of investment”. More importantly with regard to our lyrics, Keynesians like Abba Lerner, James K. Galbraith (and his son) made and make explicit calls for planning. Keynesian economist Abram Bergson apparently believed that the market socialists were right. Paul Samuelson was most certainly an apologist for central planning in his textbooks, noting repeatedly how fast the USSR was growing (and continually moving his graph forward regarding when the USSR would overtake the US in GDP). Some “science”.
Here’s Samuelson from his 1985 text (!!!):
But it would be misleading to dwell on the shortcomings. Every economy has its contradictions and difficulties with incentives—witness the paradoxes raised by the separation of ownership and control in America. . . . What counts is results, and there can be no doubt that the Soviet planning system has been a powerful engine for economic growth.
Here’s an excerpt from James K. Galbraith’s 2008 Harpers article “Plan”:
“Markets do not design new systems—new patterns of transport and housing, new technologies for electric power, for vehicles, for heating and cooling. To design a system, to put the pieces together, to identify the most promising lines of attack and take steps to achieve them: that is the planner’s role.”
This statement appears to me to be quite easily falsified. Apple’s iPad is reshaping the way information is consumed and created. It is an entirely new “system”. No need for the “planner” there. White LED lighting was not the product of a state planner. The pathway of the internet itself and the emergence of the protocols and standards in use today are not the product of a planner. They are emergent through a competitive process. This top-down view of economics as a “system” is absolutely the fatal conceit we are criticizing.
Moreover, when a keynesian claims that fiscal stimulus can restore full employment, there is an assumption that the structure of production this spending produces will be self-sustaining. If keynesian administrators are capable of systematically of deciding where to allocate resources while disregarding (or at least downplaying) prices and profits, socialism itself should work. The socialist calculation debate applies to the administrators of keynesian multi-trillion dollar spending programs. In reality, however, a program like “cash for clunkers” or the “affordable homes” subsidies provide little more than a temporary bump, pulling decisions into the present and leaving the future poorer and more indebted. That keynesian will handwave away this point and claim that they don’t care where the spending goes doesn’t change the fact that it will, in fact, go somewhere and have real impacts.
As Hayek pointed out, “Mr. Keynes aggregates conceal the most fundamental mechanisms of change”
Did Keynes advocate totalitarian central planning with his theory? No. Did he say it was more easily adapted to a totalitarian state? Yes. Have many of his most prominent followers advocated central planning? Yes.
So when our “Hayek” says “not your central plan” and “the question I ponder is who plans for whom”… we are entirely within the realm of this broader debate and completely within the context in which Hayek delivered his famed “The Pretense of Knowledge” lecture.
Lastly… yes is sure sounds lovely to claim that you have an answer for “what would YOU do to help those unemployed”. Our answer, which is hayekian and in my opinion more accurate, is that the question itself assumes that one man, group or set of government policies can actually provide a real answer when it is quite probably that there is no answer at all. The economy is organic. It is like a rainforest, not a machine or a “system”. Instead, our answer is to provide stable rules and allow real market prices so prosperity can emerge and cut short the crisis. That is a real answer. There are real policy implications for that answer. That’s no cop-out, even if it is frustrating for “policy makers” who stand to personally benefit from looking like they are “doing something”.
Never mind that the “doing something” that actually got done surely hasn’t worked by any reasonable measure. Unemployment is higher now than the “if we do nothing” projections. The “things would have been worse” analysis coming from the Blinders and Zandis of the world appear to be an unscientific backward revision, inputing the real results into a failed model and spitting out computer-generated counterfactuals (or counterfiction). Real science re-examines the model when predictions fail. But, as Hayek pointed out, what we’re really dealing with here is “scientism”.
I am reminded of the famous ‘Yes Prime Minister’ quote:
“We must do something. This is something. We must do this.”
The questions I ponder are “who is we”? How do “we” know what to do? And, yes, “who plans for whom”? Nobody is getting “Punked” here, David. At least, not by us.
p.s. – it would have been nice to see an excerpt from Keynes regarding Marx that actually contained some economic analysis instead of this obnoxious attack on the Koran. Keynes had a sharp tongue, but he was also a brilliant and deep thinker. Surely he’s written more thoughtful criticisms of socialism than this tasteless screed."
and
"johnpapola // Apr 30, 2011 at 12:49 pm
One more thing. I’m not really sure that the actual historical record conforms to this narrative that Keynes saved American from socialism, especially since Keynes himself and later Keynesians claim that his theory wasn’t even tried until the war. Here’s Keynes from The New Republic in 1940:
“It is, it seems, politically impossible for a capitalistic democracy to organize expenditure on the scale necessary to make the grand experiments which would prove my case — except in war conditions.”
The election results for the socialist party (trying to find them…) seem to indicate a popular rejection of socialism long before any Keynesianism could be said to have been put in place. This assertion that Keynes offered a vital counter to the socialist onslaught seems dubious… but maybe I’m missing something."
"Have many of his most prominent followers advocated central planning? Yes."
Who are these "most prominent followers?"
And I would again reiterate that this is at best an oversimplification of Hayek's view. Pap et al want to make this debate about whether government should intervene or not. But the honest truth is that Hayek also believed that government intervention during a recession could be justified. See my link above.
And I'm sure Russ Roberts at least would admit as much if pressed. But the point of this video isn't economic education, it is political persuasion. And Hayek's actual political beliefs during the 30s and 40s (when he was actually debating Keynes) would probably strike modern libertarians as not very libertarian at all. So Russ oversimplified them to make them easier to digest for n00bs new to the "movement".
Like I said, the video is fun and informative to a point. But it is in no way shape or form an accurate representation of Hayek's or Keynes' views. Nor is it really helpful for understanding the current political debate for stimulus. Its just a catchy libertarian propoganda video.
Student,
So Hayek was the commie and Keynes the freedom fighter? Dang.
My humble blog
It's easy to refute an argument if you first misrepresent it. William Keizer
Hey, anyone else listening to the Econtalk interview of Papola? I find it interesting that they framed the whole WW2 refutation as one that doesn't necessarily refute Keynes' argument, rather it refutes the fallacious interpretation of WW2's effects on the economy. I always thought it was weird that people keep making this claim (Krugman, too, sadly), it just seemed like circular reasoning to me.
"The power of liberty going forward is in decentralization. Not in leaders, but in decentralized activism. In a market process." -- liberty student
re: "Kuehn also seems to be very, very wrong. Is that right? lol He seems to argue a lot that we need more aggregate demand. That's very indicative of the top-down approach he says he does not entertain. It seems to me the fight is individualism vs. aggregate this or that. I don't see how Kuehn can really believe the things he said, his criticism is very shallow and non-substantive."
If by "top down" you mean "answering in a way that references any concept expressed at an aggregated level" then I suppose I have no choice but to plead guilty. But that seems like an odd definition of "top down".
haha Kuehn, do you google this forum every few weeks or so to see if anyone has mentioned your name? all of your previous posts seem aimed at image management.
re: "haha Kuehn, do you google this forum every few weeks or so to see if anyone has mentioned your name? all of your previous posts seem aimed at image management."
Well I don't "google this forum". I do google my name to see if anyone has mentioned any of my blog posts. It's a good way to keep up with reposting. Is that funny or weird to you? Why?
"videos like this perpetuate the vulgar austrian view that any and all monetary interventions will automatically lead to distortions in the capital structure. that is not what hayek thought at all. " I agree and it's probably the reason why you have people constantly misinterpreting Austrian positions and writing them off as a fringe group of market fundamentalist.