I've been working my first job with a local grocery store chain and I just recieved a letter from the "United Food and Commercial Workers International Union". They want one-hundred and nine dollars worth of initiation fees and dues. On top of that, they want me to sign an Oath of Loyalty which contains the nastiest language that completely indicates a socialist bent. Naturally, it is a compulsory organization that will see to it that I am terminated for not joining. I need the money, but should I sacrifice principle for short term financial gain? I say no.
I'll find somewhere else to work. What do you guys think? Should I swallow my pride and submit for a summer job before college?
This is apparently a Man Talk Forum: No Women Allowed!
Telpeurion's Disliked Person of the Week: David Kramer
Bite the bullet, sign the oath, but red line the document, the whole document if need be.
Telpeurion:it is a compulsory organization that will see to it that I am terminated for not joining
Refuse to join. If they terminate you, sue. Get some liberty organization to fund your defence. Fight them up to the Supreme Court if need be. I think you'd get a sympathetic hearing.
LanceH: Telpeurion:it is a compulsory organization that will see to it that I am terminated for not joining Refuse to join. If they terminate you, sue. Get some liberty organization to fund your defence. Fight them up to the Supreme Court if need be. I think you'd get a sympathetic hearing.
I believe it is a contract between the employer and the union, I am not sure the specifics. This is California, who knows what it is.
Telpeurion:I believe it is a contract between the employer and the union, I am not sure the specifics. This is California, who knows what it is.
No contract between them can bind you to sign an oath of loyalty.
If that is a condition for joining, then you have sound grounds to refuse.
They'll just rough you up a little bit. It won't be too bad.
Thing is, I am in a probationary period for 60 days, (Of course they put the Union deadline 31 days after hiring). During the probation, I can be fired for any reason - any.
Hey, are you referring to the oath of loyalty that all state employees are required to sign under the Californian constitution?
There was a recent case here:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/29/BAQPVAUVO.DTL
No it is an oath of loyalty to the labour union.
My mom was in the UFCW for something like 19 years until she went into another related industry. Talk about abuse by a monopolist entity.
For her to get her pension that she paid into for the whole time she was a union member she must not ever take a non-union job in the grocery business or else it's gone forever. She has stories about people barely able to keep their kids fed being fired by the company at the union's order because they were behind on their dues, apparently happens a lot since starting pay isn't that great and there are a lot of single mothers out there these days.
Hell, I'd just join the wobblies and let them fight it out with the other union since they have radical views on the subject and probably would. It wouldn't be a matter of a non-union worker being employed in a union shop but the fact that you don't belong to the correct union. Then the goal would be to get fired over it and win a wrongful termination lawsuit to get all the back pay while you sit around and smoke pot all day instead of working.
Like my COBRA violation that goes up by $110 a day with no statute of limitations, I'm in no hurry to let my previous employer know that they are in violation of the law since they refused to pay my earned vacation time when I quit. One of these days I'll get around to informing the property authorities...it's has only been since August. Well, make that $110 a day in fines and $110 a day for me if take them to court. COBRA laws are extra brutal from what I've found poking around on the government websites, you really don't want to run afoul of them if you're a business owner.
But anyway... If you really don't care about that job you should look into joining the wobblies just to piss them off, be money well spent in my book.
---edit---
$6 a month in dues for the IWW if you make less than $1k a month with a maximum of $18 a month would certainly be worth the effort.
I would be interested in seeing the full text of the oath, or at least a partial excerpt.
Most unions do require you to take an oath of secrecy <essentially not to divulge the union's priviledged information>. That part I would be ok with. Of course, I am in Florida, a state in which unions are usually generally very weak. Also, Florida is right to work, so unions could not make such a demand of its members.
Mark B.:Florida is right to work
Yes. Last time I checked, the only other state to guarantee this in its State constitution was South Dakota:
"The right of persons to work shall not be denied, or abridged on account of membership or non-membership in any labor union, or labor organization."
LanceH: Mark B.:Florida is right to work Yes. Last time I checked, the only other state to guarantee this in its State constitution was South Dakota: "The right of persons to work shall not be denied, or abridged on account of membership or non-membership in any labor union, or labor organization."
It is really too bad that it is not called "The Right to Freely Contract" rather than "Right to Work", which itself is a socialist theme.
Anonymous Coward:Like my COBRA violation that goes up by $110 a day with no statute of limitations, I'm in no hurry to let my previous employer know that they are in violation of the law since they refused to pay my earned vacation time when I quit. One of these days I'll get around to informing the property authorities...it's has only been since August. Well, make that $110 a day in fines and $110 a day for me if take them to court. COBRA laws are extra brutal from what I've found poking around on the government websites, you really don't want to run afoul of them if you're a business owner.
Don't take this the wrong way, maybe it's because I am a small business owner, but what you wrote sounds very "unlibertarian" to me.
I'd go get my vacation pay, rather than force a business to pay a fine to the government, waste time in the courts (reinforcing bad employment regulation), etc.
I would not think lesser of yourself, when someone puts a gun in your face and you hand over your wallet. Don't sacrifice yourself for an ideal, unless the reward is right man.
liberty student: Don't take this the wrong way, maybe it's because I am a small business owner, but what you wrote sounds very "unlibertarian" to me. I'd go get my vacation pay, rather than force a business to pay a fine to the government, waste time in the courts (reinforcing bad employment regulation), etc.
Ok, here's the problem with that.
During the six weeks or so that my attempt to get my final paycheck dragged out I looked into labor law to see how I could compel them to give me my money and turned this up which I then told at least three different people about within the company. Every response was to the effect of 'that's not my department'.
Oh, I forgot to mention that the reason I quit was because they accidentally terminated me in their computer system after a quarterly job review and I didn't get a paycheck for a month so they knew a problem existed as everything worked fine except direct deposit if you were terminated. Nobody even noticed that a non-employee was in charge of a couple hundred thousand dollars of equipment and was dealing with their customers on a daily basis until I started to inquire about my pay.
So fast forward a bit and I finally get my paycheck and notice there is no vacation pay. So yet again I start looking into labor law and find that even though we had a legal contract that stipulated vacation pay they are under no obligation to pay it under Arizona law, it's optional. Call the company again and find out that they indeed do not pay vacation time to former employees due to this law and I yet again tell them of their violation under COBRA law.
Now I have the choice of either accepting their right under the law to break the terms of my employment contract or waiting until they discover that I don't actually work there anymore and fulfill their legal obligation at which time I'll let the Labor Board get all medieval on their ass.
No option to 'go get my vacation pay' as the law precludes this from happening.
Byzantine:Except it's not a free market. Under the National Labor Relations Act, the employer has to deal with the union whether it wants to or not.
So, from the fact that the employer is coerced into dealing with a union, we deduce that the employer should also be coerced into employing a particular individual in contradiction to the established workplace rules? Seems like there's a battle going on here where neither side wishes to recognize the private property rights of the owner.
JAlanKatz: I'm not sure I see the issue. The OP wants to work for a company which has made a contractual arrangement with a union. He might disapprove of this contract, but in a free market, his disapproval is irrelevant - his employer, or prospective employer, has set conditions for employment. Why is he seeking to override their right to decide who they hire, and for what reasons? What gives him a right to a job which should override the voluntary choices of his employer? If you don't want to sign the oath and accept union conditions, don't. Go work for Walmart, or Whole Foods, or some other non-union employer.
I'm not sure I see the issue. The OP wants to work for a company which has made a contractual arrangement with a union. He might disapprove of this contract, but in a free market, his disapproval is irrelevant - his employer, or prospective employer, has set conditions for employment. Why is he seeking to override their right to decide who they hire, and for what reasons? What gives him a right to a job which should override the voluntary choices of his employer? If you don't want to sign the oath and accept union conditions, don't. Go work for Walmart, or Whole Foods, or some other non-union employer.
I concur with the other poster, this is NOT a free market. These grocery companies had these unions rammed down their throat, whether they wanted them or not. They are forced by law to bargain with these unions, whether they wanted to or not. And they were forced by law to accept union contracts. This also goes for those employees who wanted no part of the union.
The solution is the total and absolute repeal of the National Labor Relations Act and to allow both companies and employees full freedom to associate or to REFRAIN from associating with unions.
Telpeurion:Thing is, I am in a probationary period for 60 days, (Of course they put the Union deadline 31 days after hiring). During the probation, I can be fired for any reason - any.
I should mention that - as a matter of principle - do not swear oathes at all and have already refused to do so in a court case.
Ok, you may need some social support for this. But possibly your experience is worthwhile, since you will be able to write a lengthy article on your first hand experiences on the union.
Mark B.: I concur with the other poster, this is NOT a free market. These grocery companies had these unions rammed down their throat, whether they wanted them or not. They are forced by law to bargain with these unions, whether they wanted to or not. And they were forced by law to accept union contracts. This also goes for those employees who wanted no part of the union. The solution is the total and absolute repeal of the National Labor Relations Act and to allow both companies and employees full freedom to associate or to REFRAIN from associating with unions.
I certainly agree with your conclusion there, but the point at hand is what our original poster should do. His options are
1. Joining the union
2. Working somewhere else
3. Suing
Granting that the employer has already been either actually or theoretically victimized by being forced to deal with the union (it's possible, although not likely, that he wanted to deal with it anyway) option 3 suggests that he should be victimized again by being dragged to court. In court, either the employer will win and nothing will happen, or the employee will win and the employer, not the union, will owe him damages. I don't see how either outcome is particularly good for liberty. Regardless of what happens, the government is now more involved, not less, in the running of this company. I still fail to see the good outcome here. Of all the people to turn to for protection from coercion...
Telpeurion:they want me to sign an Oath of Loyalty which contains the nastiest language that completely indicates a socialist bent
No to oaths and no to unions. Don't submit and see what they do. Make a media story out of it if you must.
Superfluous:No to oaths and no to unions. Don't submit and see what they do. Make a media story out of it if you must.
"Signing" a document with a phony name, might be funny as well - I sometimes do that, when I'm coerced to abide to entry rules at places. Then it's usually "Crusty the Clown".
Telpeurion: I'll find somewhere else to work. What do you guys think? Should I swallow my pride and submit for a summer job before college?
We seem to all be in agreement...no way!
When I registered for college at the University of Sydney I was kindly asked for my compulsary $604 Student Union Fee. It was my first year and I didn't stand up to those in charge at the time. I sheepishly paid it. Fortunately for me Compulsary Student Unionism was abolished by the Federal government by the time I began my second year.
Irish Liberty Forum
Because California is not a state that recognizes free contracting I will be fired without much of a case. Not to mention they mentioned mandatory membership in the Union when I applied. I suppose I will sign just because I very much doubt I will be able to find more work in this area. Union scams, here I come.