katja328: What happens when SDK runs out of land to give to colonists? Also, what happens after 60 days? It takes more than 60 days to have your land produce decent crops. What about farm animals? Are you going to have animals on your "arc"? How do you know the locals will be happy and excited that you are arriving? If the country you are going to is "instable" or whatever you want to call it, what are you going to do in the future? Let's call this country you are going to, Libertopia. What if Libertopia all of a sudden decides to elect a government and they don't want you there anymore? 200 colonists against a bunch of wild, upset natives trying to force you out?
What happens when SDK runs out of land to give to colonists?
Also, what happens after 60 days? It takes more than 60 days to have your land produce decent crops. What about farm animals? Are you going to have animals on your "arc"?
How do you know the locals will be happy and excited that you are arriving?
If the country you are going to is "instable" or whatever you want to call it, what are you going to do in the future? Let's call this country you are going to, Libertopia. What if Libertopia all of a sudden decides to elect a government and they don't want you there anymore?
200 colonists against a bunch of wild, upset natives trying to force you out?
I think I have pretty much explained the land distribution. I summarize again, the first 200 Colonists receive land as distributed by the SDK from 5-10 acres. After this additional Colonists will either settle adjacent unoccupied territory or purchase land.
What happens after 60 days? As a Colonist you need to plan ahead. I have made no promise or agreement to provide you food and shelter for the rest of your life. Perhaps you seek freedom only if everything is provided for you? Colonists need to plan for their own lives and much of this will depend on how much in resources they bring to the Colony or have access too.
What happens if we are unwelcomed? What happens if we are welcomed? What happens if the people in the surrounding area are ecstatic that an enthusiastic group of people have entered their area and immediately begin investing in improvements and livestock and improving the area with investments in crops and fishing, building houses and centers for technology creating jobs in construction?
If your looking for risk free freedom, it does not exist.
dunkel: The pilgrims in 1620 did not have any information because there was little to none available, even if they had wanted to share it. They just knew they were going "that way". You're withholding information out of some need for secrecy. Big difference. That one fact, out of all the smaller red flags, is what makes me the most skeptical. There are a million reasons to know where we're going and I can't think of any good reasons not to know. I'd like to know what kinds of crops we might be growing, what kind of wildlife we might encounter, what kinds of diseases I might need innoculation against, local weather patterns, what kinds of building materials would be most appropriate, what foreign languages might be useful to learn, and so on.
The pilgrims in 1620 did not have any information because there was little to none available, even if they had wanted to share it. They just knew they were going "that way". You're withholding information out of some need for secrecy. Big difference.
That one fact, out of all the smaller red flags, is what makes me the most skeptical. There are a million reasons to know where we're going and I can't think of any good reasons not to know. I'd like to know what kinds of crops we might be growing, what kind of wildlife we might encounter, what kinds of diseases I might need innoculation against, local weather patterns, what kinds of building materials would be most appropriate, what foreign languages might be useful to learn, and so on.
It would certainly be easier if the location could be revealed. This is the difference between the hypothetical discussion and actually doing something. Had you considered the reality that some people or institutions might oppose the creation of this free society? In fact anywhere from the starting point, to any place enroute we might encounter resistance and therefore be prevented from ever making the journey.
From a philosophical point of view the exact location is not nearly as important as the idea. We go to create a free society. I have explained in general what to expect. There is nothing to prevent any Colonist from returning at anytime to where they started. Colonists will have the ability to have additional items and equipment shipped to them and can essentially have whatever financial support they have personally or can obtain from others.
To the people who end up going and want freedom the exact location is not the critical matter. They will make their own contingency plans if the Colony does not meet their expectations. You are either committed to the idea of a free society or not.
katja328: Maxliberty: What possible aspect of the Liberty Colony is in anyway an example of communism....now that is ludicrous. The very first statement on your website All Colonists are committed to the principle that an attack against one Colonist is an attack against all Colonists. All Colonists are expected to come to the defense of any colonist whose property or person are attacked by any party outside the Colony. Failure to do so will result in the confisication of all property within the Colony and the offending party will be banished. correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds very much like communism to me.
Maxliberty: What possible aspect of the Liberty Colony is in anyway an example of communism....now that is ludicrous.
What possible aspect of the Liberty Colony is in anyway an example of communism....now that is ludicrous.
The very first statement on your website All Colonists are committed to the principle that an attack against one Colonist is an attack against all Colonists. All Colonists are expected to come to the defense of any colonist whose property or person are attacked by any party outside the Colony. Failure to do so will result in the confisication of all property within the Colony and the offending party will be banished.
correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds very much like communism to me.
Except your leaving out the fact that everybody who is bound by that statement has voluntarily agreed to be bound to that contract. Contracts are critical to free societies and there is no contract imposed on anyone in the Liberty Colony.
Maxliberty: dunkel: The pilgrims in 1620 did not have any information because there was little to none available, even if they had wanted to share it. They just knew they were going "that way". You're withholding information out of some need for secrecy. Big difference. That one fact, out of all the smaller red flags, is what makes me the most skeptical. There are a million reasons to know where we're going and I can't think of any good reasons not to know. I'd like to know what kinds of crops we might be growing, what kind of wildlife we might encounter, what kinds of diseases I might need innoculation against, local weather patterns, what kinds of building materials would be most appropriate, what foreign languages might be useful to learn, and so on. It would certainly be easier if the location could be revealed. This is the difference between the hypothetical discussion and actually doing something. Had you considered the reality that some people or institutions might oppose the creation of this free society? In fact anywhere from the starting point, to any place enroute we might encounter resistance and therefore be prevented from ever making the journey. From a philosophical point of view the exact location is not nearly as important as the idea. We go to create a free society. I have explained in general what to expect. There is nothing to prevent any Colonist from returning at anytime to where they started. Colonists will have the ability to have additional items and equipment shipped to them and can essentially have whatever financial support they have personally or can obtain from others. To the people who end up going and want freedom the exact location is not the critical matter. They will make their own contingency plans if the Colony does not meet their expectations. You are either committed to the idea of a free society or not.
That is a lame excuse for not revealing the location. Wouldn't the location be revealed once someone decided to leave and then wouldn't that present the problem you are trying avoid?
we must resist the borg
Maxliberty: What happens after 60 days? As a Colonist you need to plan ahead. I have made no promise or agreement to provide you food and shelter for the rest of your life. Perhaps you seek freedom only if everything is provided for you? Colonists need to plan for their own lives and much of this will depend on how much in resources they bring to the Colony or have access too.
And fill me in how one can plan ahead when you don't know where you are going to end up short of "somewhere warm".
Sometimes "majority" simply means that all the fools are on the same side
anonnymous: Maxliberty: dunkel: The pilgrims in 1620 did not have any information because there was little to none available, even if they had wanted to share it. They just knew they were going "that way". You're withholding information out of some need for secrecy. Big difference. That one fact, out of all the smaller red flags, is what makes me the most skeptical. There are a million reasons to know where we're going and I can't think of any good reasons not to know. I'd like to know what kinds of crops we might be growing, what kind of wildlife we might encounter, what kinds of diseases I might need innoculation against, local weather patterns, what kinds of building materials would be most appropriate, what foreign languages might be useful to learn, and so on. It would certainly be easier if the location could be revealed. This is the difference between the hypothetical discussion and actually doing something. Had you considered the reality that some people or institutions might oppose the creation of this free society? In fact anywhere from the starting point, to any place enroute we might encounter resistance and therefore be prevented from ever making the journey. From a philosophical point of view the exact location is not nearly as important as the idea. We go to create a free society. I have explained in general what to expect. There is nothing to prevent any Colonist from returning at anytime to where they started. Colonists will have the ability to have additional items and equipment shipped to them and can essentially have whatever financial support they have personally or can obtain from others. To the people who end up going and want freedom the exact location is not the critical matter. They will make their own contingency plans if the Colony does not meet their expectations. You are either committed to the idea of a free society or not. That is a lame excuse for not revealing the location. Wouldn't the location be revealed once someone decided to leave and then wouldn't that present the problem you are trying avoid?
The location will be revealed as soon as we arrive at the location. So it will not be possible to stop us from getting there at that point. Again, for the people who really want to create a free society they will make contingencies if the Colony does not meet their expectations.
Anonymous Coward:I, For one, prefer hypothetical starvation to its practical application. How does one make contingency plans when all the information is a matter of 'operational security' exactly? I'm getting the distinct impression this information isn't forthcoming because you don't have the answers. It's like the Underpants Gnome colonization plan or something.
that was funny
Yeah, I'm starting to think it's a pretty lame excuse. You are posting this on the internet, for anyone to see, so there is nothing stopping anyone from monitoring your activities. There is nothing stop any government agency from sending a mole. There are a million ways to stop you from what you're doing, if someone really wanted it stopped. If it succeeds, it's not going to be because you had tight lips.
Think about it...you are collecting money. $2000 x 100 = $200,000, right? You think nobody is going to notice that kind of cash changing hands? Going into accounts? The purchase of that many guns? Tickets? Charter of a boat or plane for the transport of 100 people + baggage? And regardless of where you end up going, it's going to take about 15 minutes for the locals, however disorganized the local government might be, for them to realize that 100 Americans just landed and started setting up shop. About 15 minutes after that, the local authorities are going to know about it. About 15 minutes later, they will either be coming to get you or they will be contacting American authorities. And it's not like they're going to give you a pass just because you slipped out under the radar.
Then there is the issue of credibility. Any minor advantage you think you might be gaining by keeping it all a secret is far outweighed by a loss of confidence and credibility that you're going to suffer.
So either you're stalling, lying, are unable to really see that keeping the location a secret is not in your best interests, or you simply plan on stealing the money and killing anyone that actually shows up. Which is it?
Hey, thats what contengencies are for. No one really believes that, say for instance, the government might track your activities. who needs credibility when you have secured $200,000.
My two biggest issues are 1) he wont tell us where it is. I'm sorry, but there isn't a plot of land on this planet that isn't claimed by someone, especially if it's "warm year round." The only thing I can think of is Africa, particularly Somallia. That is the only place something like this could happen and historical precident tells me that Africans are more than happy to chop off your limbs if they don't like you. I'm sorry but 200 "Colonist" against a people who have a long illustrious history of bloody brutal warfare doesn't sound like much of an opportunity.
2) I wouldn't ever hire a PDA to run my life. That isn't how a PDA operates. A PDA is chosen by me to provide security for me not to set up rules on how I should or shouldn't live. Like the aborition issue you've been discussing. No PDA has the right to tell someone they can't have an abortion. Nor can the PDA say I have to stick with them for an entire year! Every security company in existence allows you to cancel your membership.
This thing sounds like a bad idea at best and a massive rip off scam at worst.
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds. " -- Samuel Adams.
kingmonkey: My two biggest issues are 1) he wont tell us where it is. I'm sorry, but there isn't a plot of land on this planet that isn't claimed by someone, especially if it's "warm year round." The only thing I can think of is Africa, particularly Somallia. That is the only place something like this could happen and historical precident tells me that Africans are more than happy to chop off your limbs if they don't like you. I'm sorry but 200 "Colonist" against a people who have a long illustrious history of bloody brutal warfare doesn't sound like much of an opportunity. 2) I wouldn't ever hire a PDA to run my life. That isn't how a PDA operates. A PDA is chosen by me to provide security for me not to set up rules on how I should or shouldn't live. Like the aborition issue you've been discussing. No PDA has the right to tell someone they can't have an abortion. Nor can the PDA say I have to stick with them for an entire year! Every security company in existence allows you to cancel your membership. This thing sounds like a bad idea at best and a massive rip off scam at worst.
It is understandable to want additional information about the location. So ask yourself this, what location would you be willing to go to? I think for many if not all of you the answer is that there is no place that you are willing to go. If your not convinced of the idea of freedom then frankly the location is irrelevant. Now ask yourself why if 100 other people were willing to go under these conditions why you would not support it? Some of you have asked reasonable logistical questions about livestock and other aspects. Why not offer support to solve some of these issues. For example, how about starting a financial group that commits to providing $10,000 worth of loans to the first 100 Colonists for the purpose of securing livestock. This example requires no upfront committment by you and allows you to support the idea despite your own fears regarding the possible locations.
As I said before we are out of the realm of hypothetical. All of the logistical issues are really a matter of funding. Do you think if we raised 30 million dollars like Ron Paul that you would be worried about the 100 Colonists having enough to eat? Or if as a Colonist you had $100,000 in the bank that you could access would you be worried about having enough to eat or returning to wherever you were if you didn't like the Colony?
See there are no limitations now. There are no excuses for inaction. Use your imagination to solve whatever perceived problem you think there is.
Maxliberty: It is understandable to want additional information about the location. So ask yourself this, what location would you be willing to go to? I think for many if not all of you the answer is that there is no place that you are willing to go. If your not convinced of the idea of freedom then frankly the location is irrelevant. Now ask yourself why if 100 other people were willing to go under these conditions why you would not support it? Some of you have asked reasonable logistical questions about livestock and other aspects. Why not offer support to solve some of these issues. For example, how about starting a financial group that commits to providing $10,000 worth of loans to the first 100 Colonists for the purpose of securing livestock. This example requires no upfront committment by you and allows you to support the idea despite your own fears regarding the possible locations. As I said before we are out of the realm of hypothetical. All of the logistical issues are really a matter of funding. Do you think if we raised 30 million dollars like Ron Paul that you would be worried about the 100 Colonists having enough to eat? Or if as a Colonist you had $100,000 in the bank that you could access would you be worried about having enough to eat or returning to wherever you were if you didn't like the Colony? See there are no limitations now. There are no excuses for inaction. Use your imagination to solve whatever perceived problem you think there is.
Somehow I don't think you are on the same page as the rest of us. How can you go and ask people for financial funding when you are not going to give them information? You want people to support your cause so you can figure out the rest of your half-thoughtout plan? Give me a break.
If you want to raise money, make a list of what you are planning on purchasing and the amount it will cost and then ask for donations.
You remind me of Obama. You are asking for support and money, yet you are not giving people any clear answers.
No, here is the problem. Who are you? I dont' know who you are, I don't know what your REAL motivations are, I don't know where you expect me to go, I don't know how you plan on getting me there, and I don't know who you are going to pay to "protect" me once I'm there. Those are the issues. You like to talk about the Pilgrams coming over from England to the New World. There is a big difference between the Pilgrams and what you are trying to do. They knew who was going to be on the boats. They knew who was putting the effort together and they had a general idea of where they were going. They weren't the first people to go to the New World and had some, though little, information about it.
But you are some unknown person with a website asking us to give you $2,000. We don't know you, we don't know where you want us to go, you are demanding that we obey your laws (which is completely contrary to what we are fighting for) and you haven't really told us how our security will be ensured (just who are these locals you are going to hire to "protect" us?). You keep talking about "Operational Security" but that's just retarded. In this world there is no such thing. NSA, FBI, CIA, Mossad, MI6 -- name your intelligence agency and they are reading everything you write and listening to everything you say. Besides, if you are going to some third world country with no effective government (sounds like Somalia) then why the need for operation security? No one cares if you move to Somalia! It's Africa and no one cares about Africa.
I don't think your plan is "liberty." I think you are a huckster and a conman out to make a quick buck.
katja328: Maxliberty: It is understandable to want additional information about the location. So ask yourself this, what location would you be willing to go to? I think for many if not all of you the answer is that there is no place that you are willing to go. If your not convinced of the idea of freedom then frankly the location is irrelevant. Now ask yourself why if 100 other people were willing to go under these conditions why you would not support it? Some of you have asked reasonable logistical questions about livestock and other aspects. Why not offer support to solve some of these issues. For example, how about starting a financial group that commits to providing $10,000 worth of loans to the first 100 Colonists for the purpose of securing livestock. This example requires no upfront committment by you and allows you to support the idea despite your own fears regarding the possible locations. As I said before we are out of the realm of hypothetical. All of the logistical issues are really a matter of funding. Do you think if we raised 30 million dollars like Ron Paul that you would be worried about the 100 Colonists having enough to eat? Or if as a Colonist you had $100,000 in the bank that you could access would you be worried about having enough to eat or returning to wherever you were if you didn't like the Colony? See there are no limitations now. There are no excuses for inaction. Use your imagination to solve whatever perceived problem you think there is. Somehow I don't think you are on the same page as the rest of us. How can you go and ask people for financial funding when you are not going to give them information? You want people to support your cause so you can figure out the rest of your half-thoughtout plan? Give me a break. If you want to raise money, make a list of what you are planning on purchasing and the amount it will cost and then ask for donations. You remind me of Obama. You are asking for support and money, yet you are not giving people any clear answers.
It is true that we differ on a few basic issues. It is not my cause that I ask for support it is the cause of freedom....your own. Again, first ask yourself if you are willing to support the idea? If the answer is no then all of the other issues you have are irrelevant. If the answer is yes then whatever issues you may have can be overcome.
Many of you are vary anxious about the location. So ask yourself where are you willing to go?
Also, many of you want me to be responsible for providing for every aspect of your life in the Colony, your food, transportiation, shelter, security for free. The goal is to create a free society and that will require you to be responsible for making sure you have what is needed. I can help but I have no intention of being your nanny state.
kingmonkey: Maxliberty: It is understandable to want additional information about the location. So ask yourself this, what location would you be willing to go to? I think for many if not all of you the answer is that there is no place that you are willing to go. If your not convinced of the idea of freedom then frankly the location is irrelevant. Now ask yourself why if 100 other people were willing to go under these conditions why you would not support it? Some of you have asked reasonable logistical questions about livestock and other aspects. Why not offer support to solve some of these issues. For example, how about starting a financial group that commits to providing $10,000 worth of loans to the first 100 Colonists for the purpose of securing livestock. This example requires no upfront committment by you and allows you to support the idea despite your own fears regarding the possible locations. As I said before we are out of the realm of hypothetical. All of the logistical issues are really a matter of funding. Do you think if we raised 30 million dollars like Ron Paul that you would be worried about the 100 Colonists having enough to eat? Or if as a Colonist you had $100,000 in the bank that you could access would you be worried about having enough to eat or returning to wherever you were if you didn't like the Colony? See there are no limitations now. There are no excuses for inaction. Use your imagination to solve whatever perceived problem you think there is. No, here is the problem. Who are you? I dont' know who you are, I don't know what your REAL motivations are, I don't know where you expect me to go, I don't know how you plan on getting me there, and I don't know who you are going to pay to "protect" me once I'm there. Those are the issues. You like to talk about the Pilgrams coming over from England to the New World. There is a big difference between the Pilgrams and what you are trying to do. They knew who was going to be on the boats. They knew who was putting the effort together and they had a general idea of where they were going. They weren't the first people to go to the New World and had some, though little, information about it. But you are some unknown person with a website asking us to give you $2,000. We don't know you, we don't know where you want us to go, you are demanding that we obey your laws (which is completely contrary to what we are fighting for) and you haven't really told us how our security will be ensured (just who are these locals you are going to hire to "protect" us?). You keep talking about "Operational Security" but that's just retarded. In this world there is no such thing. NSA, FBI, CIA, Mossad, MI6 -- name your intelligence agency and they are reading everything you write and listening to everything you say. Besides, if you are going to some third world country with no effective government (sounds like Somalia) then why the need for operation security? No one cares if you move to Somalia! It's Africa and no one cares about Africa. I don't think your plan is "liberty." I think you are a huckster and a conman out to make a quick buck.
The issue is that you have to think and provide for yourself. You have to make plans for how you will live and do business in the Colony. Do you have questions and concerns...sure, but they have to be answered by you. You ask me "how our security will ensured?"....my answer is simple you are responsible for your security, I have only offered to provide for a limited time some additional resources in this matter.
Is there any place you are willing to go?
I have made no restrictions on how you can cooperate with other Colonists or others outside the Colony barring the prohibition of murder and rape.
If you want to create a free society and have real questions then ask them and lets find ways to overcome whatever objections you may have.
Guys and Gals the one thing this guy is consistant on and the one thing he keeps repeating is the issue of money. He talks about contengencies without giving enough information to rightly formulate those contengencies but continues and without exception to request funding. Like I said before it is all crap. Save your breath and let this guy wander away. Send your money to me instead. You can come to my place here in SC and live as free as you please. The weather is nice, the neighbors are not hostile, no they are quite friendly, so you want need no self defense force and they are more than happy to help you out when your down. We have quick access to beaches, fishing, good schools and churches for every denomination. So, come on down, set a spell and we can talk about how we are going to become a little freer than we are now.
Jain Daugh: If you haven't 'got' it for yourself, ya ain'ta gonna 'get' it from banning together with other wannabes in 'A' location.
If you haven't 'got' it for yourself, ya ain'ta gonna 'get' it from banning together with other wannabes in 'A' location.
Yeah, because having likeminded friends sucks.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
Maxliberty:Also, many of you want me to be responsible for providing for every aspect of your life in the Colony, your food, transportiation, shelter, security for free. The goal is to create a free society and that will require you to be responsible for making sure you have what is needed. I can help but I have no intention of being your nanny state.
Ok, here's the deal.
So far all questions have been answered in a manner that implies that the lack of information coming from you on the details of this endeavor are somehow the result of a failing of the person asking the question.
Someone wants to know what the conditions are like at the proposed site to plan what kind of crops they could grow or wants to know what kind of 'support' would be available on the ground and they are answered that they need to make contingency plans and can't provide for themselves.
Basically we have been able to get two concrete details out of you; a) abortion will be dealt with by capital punishment and b) if 'we' somehow manage to raise a few million dollars (presumably held by your corporation) that all outstanding concerns will be solved.
You seem to think that if people believe hard enough in Liberty that nothing bad will happen during this little adventure due to the lack of planning on your part, there certainly can't be any planning done by any potential participants since they just know they are going 'somewhere' and will be provided a pick, shovel, shotgun and it's warm there.
Pack up everything you need to live and survive in some unknown location in two duffel bags and show up at some departure location at some date in the future...but don't forget to plan for all eventualities in the meantime.
Oh, and who exactly are you again that we should trust our future on your ability to plan out all the little details in secret because 'enemies of freedom' are out to stop you?
Maxliberty: The issue is that you have to think and provide for yourself. You have to make plans for how you will live and do business in the Colony.
The issue is that you have to think and provide for yourself. You have to make plans for how you will live and do business in the Colony.
I've no objection to thinking for, and providing for, myself. Information about where I'm going to be (not necessarily the lat/long, but climate, what crops are viable, what amentities and markets are available locally, what hunting is permissible/available, would be remarkably important.
Food, at subsistance levels, for 60 days - not a bad deal, if you can be assured that 60 days will be enough time to clear land, plant a viable crop, irrigate as needed, and have something to harvest before day 61 comes 'round. My garden here in Minnesnowta doesn't give me much hope in that direction (don't wanna live on radishes), but I'm not that much of a farmer. I have, however, heard that the minimum acreage needed for a self-sufficient farm is 20 acres - would I have the opportunity to meet other colonists in advance to set up alliances? Me, I do handcrafted goodies - mostly luxury goods, but I could switch to practical without much problem. Transit of tools would, of course be an extra expense - if it's available at all. However, I'd need to have an idea of what my local market would be - what goodies will sell to the locals, what will the other colonists want that I can provide? 60 days is not a lot of time for evaluating a market, identifying a need, and preparing to fufill that need. Advance information would be remarkably useful.
I oft use power tools - will I be able to obtain fuel for a generator locally, or would that need to be shipped in - and how expensive/reliable is shipping? I'll want a roof - what building materials would be available?
Do you have questions and concerns...sure, but they have to be answered by you. You ask me "how our security will ensured?"....my answer is simple you are responsible for your security, I have only offered to provide for a limited time some additional resources in this matter.
I'm fine with providing for my own personal security - but by your contract, I'll be responsible for assisting with the colony's security as well. What assaults on such security should I expect? A shotgun is okay for short-range defense against a low-tech assault - will I want to truck in a 30-06 for longer range, or is it jungle, where a 9mm carbine would be more useful? On a worst-case scenario, will we have a running battle with a local warlord, or a nationalist army determined to repel an invasion, or is petty theft by the locals going to be my primary concern?
I can walk into the wilderness with a pack and survive - but I generally know something about what kind of wilderness I'm going to walk into. I can take two duffels (and arrange for other shipping) and come up prosperous - but what I put into those duffels will be the result of a lot more knowledge of the conditions I'll be landing in.
Yup - lots of them. There are, however, some places I'd just as soon avoid. I'd contemplate a non-disclosure agreement, with the 2K as surity, to be refunded at the date of transport if I choose to not go - but jumping blind is something I reserve for emergencies, and I'm not quite at emergency status right now.
Ahhh... there'll be laws. My objection to the ban on abortion (and the implications that go with it) aside, I see some pretty horrendous problems with the structure of this. How is the tribunal selected? (I could easily find 3 people who would find guilty anyone accused of rape, regardless of the evidence - a smart woman could do well using this system for extortion.) Would extortion be against the rules? How about theft? Non-injurious assault? (By which I mean minimal bruising, nothing needing the services of a medical practitioner.)
For that matter, would medical services be available? You may want to waive the 2K fee to have a trained medical professional on hand.
Back to the legal system - this could be quite an opportunity for a gang of bullies who knew how to stay just this side of the laws. For that matter, what guarantees do the colonists have that the mandantorily-contracted security force would not be such bullies? I know that police forces rarely become corrupt, but it has been known to happen - what recourse would the colonists have in such a case?
You're asking for an awful lot of faith from people who don't know you, and giving very little information to them.
An intriguing idea - I'd love to see something like this done on a basis that'd be easier to trust.
Danno
The avatar graphic text:
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"What?"
"Someone is wrong on the internet."
Danno: Maxliberty: The issue is that you have to think and provide for yourself. You have to make plans for how you will live and do business in the Colony. I've no objection to thinking for, and providing for, myself. Information about where I'm going to be (not necessarily the lat/long, but climate, what crops are viable, what amentities and markets are available locally, what hunting is permissible/available, would be remarkably important. Food, at subsistance levels, for 60 days - not a bad deal, if you can be assured that 60 days will be enough time to clear land, plant a viable crop, irrigate as needed, and have something to harvest before day 61 comes 'round. My garden here in Minnesnowta doesn't give me much hope in that direction (don't wanna live on radishes), but I'm not that much of a farmer. I have, however, heard that the minimum acreage needed for a self-sufficient farm is 20 acres - would I have the opportunity to meet other colonists in advance to set up alliances? Me, I do handcrafted goodies - mostly luxury goods, but I could switch to practical without much problem. Transit of tools would, of course be an extra expense - if it's available at all. However, I'd need to have an idea of what my local market would be - what goodies will sell to the locals, what will the other colonists want that I can provide? 60 days is not a lot of time for evaluating a market, identifying a need, and preparing to fufill that need. Advance information would be remarkably useful. I oft use power tools - will I be able to obtain fuel for a generator locally, or would that need to be shipped in - and how expensive/reliable is shipping? I'll want a roof - what building materials would be available? Do you have questions and concerns...sure, but they have to be answered by you. You ask me "how our security will ensured?"....my answer is simple you are responsible for your security, I have only offered to provide for a limited time some additional resources in this matter. I'm fine with providing for my own personal security - but by your contract, I'll be responsible for assisting with the colony's security as well. What assaults on such security should I expect? A shotgun is okay for short-range defense against a low-tech assault - will I want to truck in a 30-06 for longer range, or is it jungle, where a 9mm carbine would be more useful? On a worst-case scenario, will we have a running battle with a local warlord, or a nationalist army determined to repel an invasion, or is petty theft by the locals going to be my primary concern? I can walk into the wilderness with a pack and survive - but I generally know something about what kind of wilderness I'm going to walk into. I can take two duffels (and arrange for other shipping) and come up prosperous - but what I put into those duffels will be the result of a lot more knowledge of the conditions I'll be landing in. Is there any place you are willing to go? Yup - lots of them. There are, however, some places I'd just as soon avoid. I'd contemplate a non-disclosure agreement, with the 2K as surity, to be refunded at the date of transport if I choose to not go - but jumping blind is something I reserve for emergencies, and I'm not quite at emergency status right now. I have made no restrictions on how you can cooperate with other Colonists or others outside the Colony barring the prohibition of murder and rape. Ahhh... there'll be laws. My objection to the ban on abortion (and the implications that go with it) aside, I see some pretty horrendous problems with the structure of this. How is the tribunal selected? (I could easily find 3 people who would find guilty anyone accused of rape, regardless of the evidence - a smart woman could do well using this system for extortion.) Would extortion be against the rules? How about theft? Non-injurious assault? (By which I mean minimal bruising, nothing needing the services of a medical practitioner.) For that matter, would medical services be available? You may want to waive the 2K fee to have a trained medical professional on hand. Back to the legal system - this could be quite an opportunity for a gang of bullies who knew how to stay just this side of the laws. For that matter, what guarantees do the colonists have that the mandantorily-contracted security force would not be such bullies? I know that police forces rarely become corrupt, but it has been known to happen - what recourse would the colonists have in such a case? You're asking for an awful lot of faith from people who don't know you, and giving very little information to them. An intriguing idea - I'd love to see something like this done on a basis that'd be easier to trust. Danno
Thanks for the response Danno and to all of the others as well. I know some of you have shown a desire to make me the enemy and I think some of you regardless of the opportunity for freedom will choose tyranny rather than risk change. However, I am interested in the success of freedom. I have listened to your concerns about the intitial proposal of the Liberty Colony and I believe that there should be some changes. I will be incorporating some of these changes which I think will address most of the issues raised here in this discussion. So stay tuned and I will launch a new thread about this with the changes in the Liberty Colony in the next few days. Thanks again.
Max
Libertycolony is something of an oxymoron, I am afraid. Here are two definitions of "Colony" in Dictionary.com:
I am also afraid to say that the early US colonies were anything but havens of liberty. As is documented in Murray Rothbard's "Conceived in Liberty" the Pilgrim Fathers ran a totalitarian and communist settlement which almost starved to death.
The big question is how do you intend to move into one of the territoritories you list? Somebody in those locals thinks they own that land already, and as someone has already mentioned on these forums, such a move would be regarded as an invasion. If you are not invading but intend to purchase land there, why do you think you will be able to define your own rules? You will have to abide by theirs.
Your website has comments like, "each person will be given 5 acres of land". Who will give? That already smacks of paternalism which most libitarians would reject. It also smacks of the uniformity of communism. A tenth of an acre may be sufficient for one person, and 50,000 for another. It depends on what they are doing and what their set of subjective values are.
The website makes much of your military background. Whilst that shows you are likely to have certain qualities, one has to wonder if they are the right ones for individual liberty. To many of us, the military is just another an apparatus of the State, and the State is what we are against.
Anyway, I wish you well and will follow your progress with interest.
With kind regards
Remnant.
I think if you guys went to form a colony in the USA, you may only have to pay income taxes for stuff you trade with the outside. You should be able to get an exemption like the Amish and some other commune groups. It just needs to be someplace somewhat remote.
Equality before the law and material equality are not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time. -- F. A. Hayek in The Constitution of Liberty
BlackSheep: I think if you guys went to form a colony in the USA, you may only have to pay income taxes for stuff you trade with the outside. You should be able to get an exemption like the Amish and some other commune groups. It just needs to be someplace somewhat remote.
The goal is to create a free society not just avoid paying some taxes. We seek true freedom not simply to live remotely with a little less interference.
The changes you've made to the plan are interesting. Which places on the list do you think show the least potential for a violent confrontation? Let's face it, a lot of these places would have no trouble massacring 200 well armed libertarians. Even third world, barely functioning governments have enough of an army for that. I'm also curios, which one of these places was your original planned destination?
majevska:The changes you've made to the plan are interesting. Which places on the list do you think show the least potential for a violent confrontation?
Most of them seem to be in Africa. This continent has very controlling governments, and a plethora of rebelds looking to be in charge of the big government. There is not even freedom of movement, much less any economics ones. You'll rapidly get your property confiscated there. Here in Portugal, our constitution asks for a socialist state, but that language is nothing when compared to the ones in Africa, especially former Portuguese ones, who proudly display socialist symbols in their flags. Angola in the top of the list could only be there to provoke some laughter.
South America is the land of freedom in comparison. Anyway, some indicator that is lacking is the population density, which can give a first idea of how much isolated such a colony could be. If possible, try to discount protected parks from the available land -- bodies like the UN subsidise its protection so those are out of reach if you have any love for your life.
If you don't want to have it on the USA, Mexico seems like the next best place. Not so poor as the rest of the Americas and Africa, so you don't have to be afraid of some mob invading the place, and you don't have the same dangerous guerrilas types. You should be able to buy any technology you need, and the government's size is in par to a western one. Any oppresion you may suffer will be mild, and you'll be able to cry for help from the USA. Many people tend to think of Africa as close to anarchy because of the chaos there, but their governments are the biggest and most powerful you can find anywhere in the world. That's why you have chronic wars there, everyone wants to lead the loot.
BlackSheep:Most of them seem to be in Africa. This continent has very controlling governments, and a plethora of rebelds looking to be in charge of the big government. There is not even freedom of movement, much less any economics ones. You'll rapidly get your property confiscated there. Here in Portugal, our constitution asks for a socialist state, but that language is nothing when compared to the ones in Africa, especially former Portuguese ones, who proudly display socialist symbols in their flags. Angola in the top of the list could only be there to provoke some laughter.
BlackSheep:South America is the land of freedom in comparison. Anyway, some indicator that is lacking is the population density, which can give a first idea of how much isolated such a colony could be. If possible, try to discount protected parks from the available land -- bodies like the UN subsidise its protection so those are out of reach if you have any love for your life.
BlackSheep:If you don't want to have it on the USA, Mexico seems like the next best place. Not so poor as the rest of the Americas and Africa, so you don't have to be afraid of some mob invading the place, and you don't have the same dangerous guerrilas types. You should be able to buy any technology you need, and the government's size is in par to a western one. Any oppresion you may suffer will be mild, and you'll be able to cry for help from the USA. Many people tend to think of Africa as close to anarchy because of the chaos there, but their governments are the biggest and most powerful you can find anywhere in the world. That's why you have chronic wars there, everyone wants to lead the loot.
majevska: The changes you've made to the plan are interesting. Which places on the list do you think show the least potential for a violent confrontation? Let's face it, a lot of these places would have no trouble massacring 200 well armed libertarians. Even third world, barely functioning governments have enough of an army for that. I'm also curios, which one of these places was your original planned destination?
Thanks for the comments. The places on the list were selected primarily for weak central governments and large informal economies with relatively large proportions of the population very poor. Most of the places have abundant undeveloped land available. I hope you will join in the forums and be willing to participate in the selection process. The point now is to have at least 200 people willing to participate in the process and I welcome spirited debate on the advantages and disadvantages of each potential location.
BlackSheep:Most of them seem to be in Africa. This continent has very controlling governments, and a plethora of rebelds looking to be in charge of the big government. There is not even freedom of movement, much less any economics ones. You'll rapidly get your property confiscated there.
I have to disagree with your assessment of Africa as a poor choice. The possible locations in Africa generally have weak central governments and plenty of available land. Your welcome to join the discussions in the forums at the Liberty Colony.
Mexico has a very powerful centralized government and I think is a poor choice for a variety of reasons.
Maxliberty:I have to disagree with your assessment of Africa as a poor choice. The possible locations in Africa generally have weak central governments and plenty of available land. Your welcome to join the discussions in the forums at the Liberty Colony.
... The biggest obstacle you maybe facing is the usage of the term Liberty Colony. This may create an association with "colonialism" and lead to resentment to the project at all. And I assume that one wants to establish the project with the approval of those who right now have a political claim to the land the project is established on. I would look upon good relations with neighbours as being crucial. If they turn sour this limits trade relations with them.
What one would aim for is something like a free trade zone - Just that the inititative is more of a private nature. For claiming some land one would have to offer something of value to the present decision makers. So in a sense even corruption would be useful. The second problem would be to get them to comply with the agreement. After solving this one would have to work on the implementation.
Torsten: Maxliberty:I have to disagree with your assessment of Africa as a poor choice. The possible locations in Africa generally have weak central governments and plenty of available land. Your welcome to join the discussions in the forums at the Liberty Colony.Africa is a good choice given the development potential and trade with usually neglected markets. ... The biggest obstacle you maybe facing is the usage of the term Liberty Colony. This may create an association with "colonialism" and lead to resentment to the project at all. And I assume that one wants to establish the project with the approval of those who right now have a political claim to the land the project is established on. I would look upon good relations with neighbours as being crucial. If they turn sour this limits trade relations with them. What one would aim for is something like a free trade zone - Just that the inititative is more of a private nature. For claiming some land one would have to offer something of value to the present decision makers. So in a sense even corruption would be useful. The second problem would be to get them to comply with the agreement. After solving this one would have to work on the implementation.
I understand the term Colony might have some negative impact but there is nothing to say that once we have established the Colony that it needs to be called that. As far as establishing the Colony with the approval of the existing government of the proposed location...well that would be counter to the basic idea of freedom. The key is for the Colony to maintain a low profile and be able to defend itself from local bandits. I envision the Colony will not be any place that we would expect any kind of presence from whatever weak central government may exist in the area. The Colony will use undeveloped land so there is no need for someone's approval. We must not be afraid to seek what we desire and to sell our goal short of true freedom would be a mistake.
Maxliberty:I understand the term Colony might have some negative impact...
Check out Liberia as they are a 'colony' of freed American slaves.
Then you can call it Colonia Liberia and not have to change your website's URL.
Actually, after reading the wikipedia entry it really doesn't sound like too bad of a place to live these days.
Anonymous Coward: Maxliberty:I understand the term Colony might have some negative impact... Check out Liberia as they are a 'colony' of freed American slaves. Then you can call it Colonia Liberia and not have to change your website's URL. Actually, after reading the wikipedia entry it really doesn't sound like too bad of a place to live these days.
The interesting thing is, they seem to have a sort of polycentric law: one system for the "modern sector" and another for the indigenous rural tribes.
majevska: Anonymous Coward: Maxliberty:I understand the term Colony might have some negative impact... Check out Liberia as they are a 'colony' of freed American slaves. Then you can call it Colonia Liberia and not have to change your website's URL. Actually, after reading the wikipedia entry it really doesn't sound like too bad of a place to live these days. The interesting thing is, they seem to have a sort of polycentric law: one system for the "modern sector" and another for the indigenous rural tribes.
Liberia is already on the list of potential locations for the Liberty Colony.
Maxliberty:After the first year Colonists can either renew their contract with SDK or not.
What if they don't?
Time will tell
tim: Maxliberty:After the first year Colonists can either renew their contract with SDK or not. What if they don't?
You lose protection. And after one year in the desert, someone is going to make you his bitc-h.
I'm also a bit skeptical on that one. The initial number of settlers would be a small one. And actually this may create some problems concerning the issue of providing security related services. Alternatively one may set up a company that initially owns all land and has a contract until 2020 with all new members. After 2020 the company is resolved and others can take over.
A Liberty Colony project is a difficult one. Chosing a place is the easy part. Doing the planning, proposals, predictions, procedures is the difficult part. Som research on the issue will be needed and to be published. Don't forget that the settlers will have to organize themselves, management by a government agency isn't the purpose of the whole exercise.
The site has undergone substantial revisions so you should probably visit the site for updated information.
Torsten:A Liberty Colony project is a difficult one. Chosing a place is the easy part. Doing the planning, proposals, predictions, procedures is the difficult part. Som research on the issue will be needed and to be published. Don't forget that the settlers will have to organize themselves, management by a government agency isn't the purpose of the whole exercise.
Yep, it will be challenging. Don't forget to join in and help with at least your opinion and advice in the forums.
Maxliberty:Yep, it will be challenging. Don't forget to join in and help with at least your opinion and advice in the forums.