"You can't have capitalism without the state. Period. It's entire existence is upheld by state intervention."
How would you respond to this?
it's not
capitalism is upheld by contracts, contracts can be enforced through private arbitration.
capitalism is upheld by integrity and thought and action.
Well, I would ask him to define "capitalism." Other folks on the other hand might scoff at such a request, call it a "hugely respected" term, and link you to a South Park video.
To each his own I guess.
Thanks. I talked about Murphy and Molyneux on private law, arbitration, and reputation factors.
John James:Well, I would ask him to define "capitalism."
To add to JJ, I would answer your question by saying: that all depends. Is he referring to the commonly and icnorrectly held idea of capitalism that would be the American corporatist crony-capitalism, or the pure capitalism that austrians invoke. If he means the former (which I imagine he does), he is correct; you do need the state for it to exist. If he means the latter (I doubt he does), then he is incorrect; in fact the latter conception of capitalism cannot, by definition, exist at the same time that a government or state exists.
"If men are not angels, then who shall run the state?"
Figured I might as well add this, from the greatest hits thread:
What exactly is capitalism? (thread: Online debate with schoolmate in Govt. class)
Here's one which addresses the common misconception that capitalism is a political ideology, or some written-down, defined system of economic governance, similar to Marxism, or Maoism, or any other sort of -ism. This mistake is probably due almost entirely to the word containing that suffix. But this post offers a small bit of explanation and video to set it straight.
Thoughts on Capitalism
Further discussion of capitalism, and an illustration of what happens when you don't think things all the way through.
Austen: "You can't have capitalism without the state. Period. It's entire existence is upheld by state intervention." How would you respond to this?
It's a bare assertion. It's not an argument. There's nothing to respond to unless you think the person is interested in a lecture from you. Just say: You can't have capitalism with a state! Now what?
Note that Mises himself thought the same - he spurned the idea of society completely without government. I'm a big-tent anarchist. :-P
Clayton -
I think the reason why many people think you need capitalism with government is because they think that government is needed to protect private property (scoff).
Begin by telling him about private security companies and how they can help you protect your property.
Was mises an anarchist? I dont think he was. If mises was not an anarchist what would his justification for government be?
“Since people are concerned that ‘X’ will not be provided, ‘X’ will naturally be provided by those who are concerned by its absence.""The sweetest of minds can harbor the harshest of men.”
http://voluntaryistreader.wordpress.org
If mises was not an anarchist what would his justification for government be?
I'm not aware of anywhere where he talks about a justification for government. My suspicion is that he was a "social realist" on this topic... i.e. since it is a fact that there are governments, whatever role they play in society, they are needed to play that role. He clearly believed that the role of government in the social order is preservation of a minimal set of property rights.
Ayn Rand held that capitalism was only possible where you have protection of individual rights.
That doesn't necessitate a state necessarily. It does imply certain functions the state currently performs.