LibertyStudent: Hold on a second, you mean the open borders policy by the government is intentional?
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Yeah, I lived near the Fraser Institute. I think they are a neocon thinktank.
liberty student: Yeah, I lived near the Fraser Institute. I think they are a neocon thinktank.
The term "neocon" means different things to different people. What positions do they take that you disagree with?
I am an eklektarchist not an anarchist.
Educational Pamphlet Mises Group
Juan:Open borders ? What (the hell) are you talking about ?
I'm talking about the open US borders North and South which has become a big election issue in the primaries.
Juan:Do you think that nonsensical claims like that will help you win your nonsensical argument ?
Well, at least they would be consistently nonsensical, yes?
Juan:Are you, and Paul, and others, libertarians who believe the NAP can be violated in order to restrict 'illegal' immigration ?
I can't speak for anyone else. Maybe you should ask Nicky. He speaks for all hispanics worldwide.
Juan:That is, are you a 'libertarian' who oppose the NAP ?
I am a libertarian who does not oppose the NAP.
Juan:A 'libertarian' who is not bounded by the only principle that defines libertarianism ?
Hmmm. Do you know any libertarians who practice the NAP?
Stanger: That means it is quite possible that the government created a real good by drawing borders around the country, around a state, a county, a city, a town or just a post office. To abolish it would be an act of force, as destructive as the act of establishing it by the government was.
ryanpatgray:The term "neocon" means different things to different people. What positions do they take that you disagree with?
You're right. I should have said, globalist. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Commerce.web/publication_details.aspx?pubID=2512
Btw, the Fraser is a beautiful river. Majestic.
Juan:According to you the US currently have 'open borders' ?
There might be a few million people who agree with me. Few of them are liberatarians though.
liberty student: Do they pay all taxes, or only some?
Do they pay all taxes, or only some?
You know what... Actually, I hope they don't pay any taxes and they take as much welfare as they can get. It's called bleeding the beast.
I do know that a good portion, however, have to pay the same taxes that most people pay and certainly pay no less than I do - as I pay a minimum of taxes and successfully avoid a lot of sales tax.
liberty student: No it doesn't. If production paid for welfare, there would not be an unfunded liability deficit of $53+ trillion dollars. What a ridiculous thing to say!
No it doesn't. If production paid for welfare, there would not be an unfunded liability deficit of $53+ trillion dollars. What a ridiculous thing to say!
Of course it does. $30 billion vs. the small amount of taxation that goes into welfare? $30 billion is more.
liberty student: Actually, I am descended from immigrants, and I was an immigrant to another country. And yes, when things went badly, I just went back home. Don't try to race bait me, you have no idea what race I am or where my sympathies lie.
Actually, I am descended from immigrants, and I was an immigrant to another country. And yes, when things went badly, I just went back home. Don't try to race bait me, you have no idea what race I am or where my sympathies lie.
Well, if you're anything but hispanic, you're a racist.
If you're hispanic, then you're a race traitor.
liberty student: Do you have a source for my insanity, or are you going to continue to post unsubstantiated opinion as fact? I know a lot of hispanics, legal and illegal supported Ron Paul in the election. So I'm just curious to know where you got this opinion, or common sense perspective, that he has completely turned off all hispanics. Could it be that you are exercising collectivism by assuming all Hispanics think and vote as an ethnic group, and not as rational individuals acting in their own self-interest? Who is the racist now?
Do you have a source for my insanity, or are you going to continue to post unsubstantiated opinion as fact?
I know a lot of hispanics, legal and illegal supported Ron Paul in the election. So I'm just curious to know where you got this opinion, or common sense perspective, that he has completely turned off all hispanics. Could it be that you are exercising collectivism by assuming all Hispanics think and vote as an ethnic group, and not as rational individuals acting in their own self-interest?
Who is the racist now?
It's in their self-interest to support a man that wants to kick them out of their rightfully homesteaded land?
Jesus! To hell with self-interest! Give me the commune!
The Origins of Capitalism
And for more periodic bloggings by moi,
Leftlibertarian.org
Stranger: Niccolò: If it is not a product of legitimate labour then it is not property. To hell with whatever value you xenophobes find from it. That line is much blurrier than you assume. Often properties that you claim to be illegitimate were built through the only available means provided by the law.
Niccolò: If it is not a product of legitimate labour then it is not property. To hell with whatever value you xenophobes find from it.
If it is not a product of legitimate labour then it is not property.
To hell with whatever value you xenophobes find from it.
That line is much blurrier than you assume. Often properties that you claim to be illegitimate were built through the only available means provided by the law.
F-uck the law.
The only way to acquire land and make it property is through homesteading it, period.
Byzantine: Niccolò: When will you just admit you're a racist and get it over with? Oh, which reminds me, Latin American society is at least as racially stratified as the US.
Niccolò: When will you just admit you're a racist and get it over with?
Oh, which reminds me, Latin American society is at least as racially stratified as the US.
That has nothing to do with anything. Kthnxbye.
liberty student: In order to understand that, one has to have built something, sold something, paid taxes, held a steady job, managed a household etc. Practical life experience. If all you have ever done is consume someone else's production, you can't relate to the compromises that people make to survive in the world under a state.
In order to understand that, one has to have built something, sold something, paid taxes, held a steady job, managed a household etc. Practical life experience. If all you have ever done is consume someone else's production, you can't relate to the compromises that people make to survive in the world under a state.
If you pay taxes and don't actively evade them, you're a real weak f-ucker.
I don't know how many times I have to tell you this either. I work in sales. I don't live with my parents, and the only thing they pay for is college, for which there is an agreement that as the oldest son, I will provide for them when they are too old to provide for themselves.
You, however, live in Canada. Please, don't talk to me anymore about living off of someone else's dole.
Canada. Lol. It has the high taxes of Europe with none of the tax evasion. By the way, if Latinos are coming to the US for welfare, why not go all the way up to Canada? Surely your system is far more appealing to welfare recipients!
Niccolò:You know what... Actually, I hope they don't pay any taxes and they take as much welfare as they can get. It's called bleeding the beast.
Of course you would say that. You don't produce or pay taxes. It's easy for you to give away that which is not yours.
Niccolò:I do know that a good portion, however, have to pay the same taxes that most people pay and certainly pay no less than I do - as I pay a minimum of taxes and successfully avoid a lot of sales tax.
I'm talking about income and payroll taxes.
Niccolò:Of course it does. $30 billion vs. the small amount of taxation that goes into welfare? $30 billion is more.
No, if production paid for welfare, then libertarianism wouldn't be able to mount an economic defense against the state. Really, you're being goofy now and pulling #s out of your behind like you tried to do in the Agorism thread. Spare us the BS.
Niccolò:Well, if you're anything but hispanic, you're a racist. If you're hispanic, then you're a race traitor.
How so?
Niccolò:It's in their self-interest to support a man that wants to kick them out of their rightfully homesteaded land?
What land have they homesteaded? They are migrant workers. Employees. Again, you said Paul had completely turned them off. Where is proof of that statement?
Niccolò:F-uck the law.
Why bother going to state school for a degree if you plan on living in jail and being a professional prisoner?
Niccolò:If you pay taxes and don't actively evade them, you're a real weak f-ucker.
How would you know? You're a teenager in college living off his parents.
Niccolò:I don't know how many times I have to tell you this either. I work in sales. I don't live with my parents, and the only thing they pay for is college, for which there is an agreement that as the oldest son, I will provide for them when they are too old to provide for themselves.
I love how your Bio is ever expanding. One day, someone will write a song about you. The Ballad of Niccolo.
Niccolò:You, however, live in Canada. Please, don't talk to me anymore about living off of someone else's dole. Canada. Lol. It has the high taxes of Europe with none of the tax evasion. By the way, if Latinos are coming to the US for welfare, why not go all the way up to Canada? Surely your system is far more appealing to welfare recipients!
We have a lot of immigrants come here for welfare and jobs, specifically Latinos. In fact, in some southern states, they pay for buses to ship them to Canada so they become our problem. You can criticize Canada all you like, I'm not particularly nationalistic or patriotic.
Then again, your hero SEK3 was a Canadian, so you might want to mull that one over......
LibertyStudent: Juan: According to you the US currently have 'open borders' ? There might be a few million people who agree with me.
Juan: According to you the US currently have 'open borders' ?
Juan, if you don't stop hyper-ventilating, I am going to make a page on Encyclopedia Dramatica about you.
Juan:Is that a 'yes' ? You are claiming that anybody can freely enter the US ? You don't realize your claim is nonsense ?
I do not believe this is nonsense. I do believe that border security is lax and ineffective, and anyone can cross the border unannounced, and unrestricted if they want to.
Juan:Do you think that preventing people from crossing political borders is consistent with libertarianism ? Do you think that so called state officials can lawfully use violence against peaceful people ? Does your beloved Paul support the use of violence against innocent people ?
No, I do not think it is consistent with libertarianism. However, there are literally thousands of things I do not think are consistent with libertarianism. For example, income taxes. Paul is against those. Does he get credit for that? No. He's against a draft. Does he get credit for that? No. He is against the drug war, does he get credit for that? Nope.
Again, I can't speak for Paul if he supports the use of violence. If you email his Congressional staff, they can get you answers directly from him. Maybe even an interview opportunity or a copy of Mrs. Paul's family cookbook.
Do I think state officials can lawfully use violence? Yes. They write and define the laws. I don't like it, but they do. And even if they didn't, who is going to stop the state? Are you going to drop everything and place your soft mellon between an innocent immigrant and the policeman's baton?
Our principles are high. Employing them under duress, is not easy.
liberty student: ryanpatgray:The term "neocon" means different things to different people. What positions do they take that you disagree with? You're right. I should have said, globalist. http://www.fraserinstitute.org/Commerce.web/publication_details.aspx?pubID=2512 Btw, the Fraser is a beautiful river. Majestic.
The irony is that the Luny is now worth more than the Buck. But, I'd like to play the role of Devil's advocate for a moment. Note: This is just for discussion. If the NAFTA member countries formed a monetary union like the "Euro" would that not make it harder for the member countries to "print" their way out of debt? Just asking. I am not saying I support this but it is something to consider.
ryanpatgray:The irony is that the Luny is now worth more than the Buck. But, I'd like to play the role of Devil's advocate for a moment. Note: This is just for discussion. If the NAFTA member countries formed a monetary union like the "Euro" would that not make it harder for the member countries to "print" their way out of debt? Just asking. I am not saying I support this but it is something to consider.
I'm partial to the Twoonie myself. :)
I understand you are playing Devil's advocate, but the idea of a super FED sickens me. I think libertarians are too-US centric, and really missing the boat on the larger statist plan to form global unions, and to eliminate democracy all together, as everything is done by technocrats and bankers. While we have "states" we can hope for anarchy, a super global state, or series of super-global collaborative unions would absolutely crush any anarchy and restore a statist order.
Not to mention, I oppose government currencies. In Canada, technically, we OWN our FED. The Bank of Canada is owned by the government, although it was not always so. I cannot imagine that the US FED would merge with the Bank of Canada, and allow for public ownership and accountability.
Byzantine: If you have immigration in the context of welfare, public roads, public education, birthright citizenship, and anti-discrimination laws, then that is what you are doing.
The only one of those things the Reason Foundation supports is birthright citizenship.
Byzantine: Back at ya. Let me know about all those libertarians crossing the Rio Grande, holding their Spanish editions of Human Action aloft to keep them dry.
http://www.hacer.org/
Byzantine: Window dressing for political purposes. The government continues to pursue a policy of mass, indiscriminate immigration and weak border enforcement.
So no one is actually getting deported? So there have not actually been raids on farms and factories? Hmm, they must be spending one hell of a lot of money on this "window dressing".
Byzantine: Do you seriously contend that there has been LESS immigration post-1965?
Do you seriously think Latin American countries have had fewer laws that strangle their economies post-1965?
Byzantine: Roger Pilon's disingenuous letter is here: http://www.reason.com/news/show/120946.html.
So apparently you did not read the actual letter. Two points: 1. This was something that, in the journalism business, they call a LETTER TO THE EDITOR. and 2. Near the end of the letter it contains the following: Roger Pilon:Free marketers like myself have urged lifting the ban universally, or at least with regard to the developed world. Byzantine:Then I guess you'll be stuck with all the liberal white people, wandering around with no place to go. So your definition of "liberal" is "not racist or xenophobic"? This speaks volumes.
Roger Pilon:Free marketers like myself have urged lifting the ban universally, or at least with regard to the developed world.
Byzantine:Then I guess you'll be stuck with all the liberal white people, wandering around with no place to go.
liberty student: Of course you would say that. You don't produce or pay taxes. It's easy for you to give away that which is not yours.
Of course I don't pay or produce taxes. Hence the Agorism.
By the way, my parents don't either, so... Nah, nah on that bollix.
liberty student: I'm talking about income and payroll taxes.
You want people to pay those thus sustaining the government?
liberty student: No, if production paid for welfare, then libertarianism wouldn't be able to mount an economic defense against the state. Really, you're being goofy now and pulling #s out of your behind like you tried to do in the Agorism thread. Spare us the BS.
What? Production does not create wealth?
liberty student: How so?
Race traitor is pretty self-explanatory.
liberty student: What land have they homesteaded? They are migrant workers. Employees. Again, you said Paul had completely turned them off. Where is proof of that statement?
Many own property. They've bought that property through contract. Many more work side jobs individually. Some run drugs. Some cultivate their own produce - many are farmers. Given that I don't believe most large companies legitimately own their property, the ones that work in their stores own them.
Paul has completely turned off Hispanics by taking a position that is anti-hispanic. When talking about immigration the issue is hispanic immigration. A friend of mine who is an "illegal" immigrant from Serbia is never bothered because he's... guess it, white.
Proof? I don't believe in such a thing. Evidence, however, there is plenty of. If an issue effects hispanics negatively, it is likely that they will dislike policy that causes negative effects on them.
Byzantine: Well, the next time you rail about racist white Americans, spare a thought for the fact that the mestizos and indigenous peoples are clamoring to live in the US with me than under the Spanish-descended ruling class down there.
Well, the next time you rail about racist white Americans, spare a thought for the fact that the mestizos and indigenous peoples are clamoring to live in the US with me than under the Spanish-descended ruling class down there.
Believe me, B. No one wants to live with you.
LibertyStudent: I do not believe this is nonsense. I do believe that border security is lax and ineffective, and anyone can cross the border unannounced, and unrestricted if they want to.
Again, I can't speak for Paul if he supports the use of violence.
Do I think state officials can lawfully use violence? Yes. They write and define the laws. I don't like it, but they do.
Are you going to drop everything and place your soft mellon between an innocent immigrant and the policeman's baton?
liberty student: I think libertarians are too-US centric, and really missing the boat on the larger statist plan to form global unions, and to eliminate democracy all together, as everything is done by technocrats and bankers. While we have "states" we can hope for anarchy, a super global state, or series of super-global collaborative unions would absolutely crush any anarchy and restore a statist order.
liberty student:Not to mention, I oppose government currencies.
ryanpatgray:I do not know if such an organization exists in Canada but in the United States there is an organization called the John Birch Society, they are concered about that issue. Their membership is mostly what one might call "far right" but there are a few libertarian members.
I know all about the Birchers. Some lose the plot and get a little out there, but I do believe the threat they are concerned with (global super government) is real. You only have to follow what has happened with the EU, in it's inception and now the issues arising from it, then look at the African Union with their AFRO, talks of a NAU, with the Amero and just recently an Australian friend of mine was mentioning there is serious talk of an Asian or Pan-Pacific Union.
We can bicker and argue, complain and defend Ron Paul, but the statists don't get hung up on minor details, they aren't worried about ideological purity, mythical techniques, or classification of every minor deviation in philosophy. They just keep amassing wealth, power and marching towards their goals, generation after generation. That is why liberty has gotten scarcer and scarcer. The liberty oriented folk are not long term planners, they aren't collaborative and they are predisposed to limit their actions in the now, at the expense of the later.
For example, Juan has been on my case about the NAP and borders. Well, what if closing the border, and violating the NAP would later create a massive advance towards liberty? Would libertarians do it? That is essentially the reason we have non-confrontational strategies like the Liberty Colony or Agorism. We don't want to participate in politics because it reinforces the notion of legitimacy, and yet as Plato wrote, if you don't involve yourself in politics, you risk being ruled by lesser men, which I wholeheartedly believe.
It's very frustrating. I have to finish arranging my personal affairs in a manner conducive to allowing me to take risks and to try different strategies. Maybe I will run for office. Maybe I will become an educator. Maybe I will join the Liberty Colony. Maybe I will tax resist and practice Agorism for real, possibly going to jail. I don't know at this point. I only know that talking, is getting us nowhere, while our enemies (those who want perpetual statism and total human slavery) never stop to rest. And they have no morals or ethics to get hung up on. Violence at the border? HA! They'd murder a million and not think twice about it.
liberty student: Maybe I will join the Liberty Colony. Maybe I will tax resist and practice Agorism for real, possibly going to jail. I don't know at this point. I only know that talking, is getting us nowhere, while our enemies (those who want perpetual statism and total human slavery) never stop to rest. And they have no morals or ethics to get hung up on. Violence at the border? HA! They'd murder a million and not think twice about it.
The Free State Project is less risky than Liberty Colony IMHO. http://www.freestateproject.org/
I'm not trying to re-arrange my life so I can do something low risk. I think the FSP is a joke, and besides, who the hell wants to immigrate to an emerging police state? Your country is seriously screwed up, not that mine isn't, but in Canada, people are complacent and docile, not stupid. A lot of the rank and file, Joe Publics in the US actually think a Russian invasion of Georgia means that Putin has come for your peaches. That's really damn sad.
What attracts me to the LC, is that if you can try it, and live, even if it collapses, you can learn a lot, and you can gain a lot of attention for the effort. I'm talking about at worst, being able to lecture, interview and write about it, and if it works, even for a shortwhile, wow, there is so much Libertarians can learn, so many people might be inspired, it's like a Ron Paul campaign. Big risk, big reward.
So, nothing ventured, nothing gained in my opinion. I want to interact with people, not get a degree or 4 and write books and have an academic blog. I respect some of the people who do that, but it's not enough for all of us to blog and write articles, to discuss on liberty oriented message boards. We're kidding ourselves if we think that is going to get it done.
liberty student: I want to interact with people, not get a degree or 4 and write books and have an academic blog. I respect some of the people who do that, but it's not enough for all of us to blog and write articles, to discuss on liberty oriented message boards. We're kidding ourselves if we think that is going to get it done.
The point of the Free State Project is that New Hampshire (one of the smallest of U.S. States) is small enough that if a large number of people move there they will BE ABLE to interact with one another. Moving a large number of people to a small state has a number of advantages. For one, many different experiments can be tried at once and we can figure out which ones work and which ones don't. Are acts of civil disobedience more effective than handing out ISIL pamphlets? Does running for office generate more support for liberty than demonstrating about an issue? Do people respond better to arguments from the left or arguments from the right? There is so much that we can learn from. I want to STOP the U.S. from becoming a police state and the way representation works in the U.S. gives small population states a per-capita advantage in terms of representation. For example, in the U.S. Senate all states, regardless of population have 2 U.S. Senators. A big impact could be made in a small area. And if you are a non-voter you are welcome too. The main idea is to get lots of libertarians in a small area so that we can exchange ideas, work together and learn from one another.
I wrote a long reply, and scrapped it. The FSP might be for you, it's not for me. I wish you the best of luck with everything you try to do. Your forum idea in your signature field clued me in that you're a doer and a thinker.
liberty student: I wrote a long reply, and scrapped it. The FSP might be for you, it's not for me. I wish you the best of luck with everything you try to do. Your forum idea in your signature field clued me in that you're a doer and a thinker.
Thank you, I wish you the best of luck with what you try. Perhaps the two organizations can learn from each other as well. We need to try many expirements and find out what works and what does not.
Thanks for the compliment, not sure it is deserved.
Yes, both parties are a joke. In fact, the 3rd parties are also jokes. You're starting to get it. They all collude to rape the citizenry through taxation and to dominate them through legislation. For every "good politician" who means well, you have 30 or 40 total sellouts to humanity.
Ryan, just so we're clear, I didn't say you shouldn't criticize Paul's positions, and I thought I made it clear I disagreed with him on several issues. I just think he does more good than harm, which you can't say about most of the politicians. Obviously Nic would disagree on that, and I honestly hadn't thought of latinos as a strong base for libertarian ideas before, so I'll be thinking about it.
Byzantine:From the HACER website: "Lacking traditions that consistently uphold the rule of law, the free society remains a work-in-progress throughout the Spanish-speaking countries of the Western hemisphere." Also, by your own admission, Latin American countries continue to pursue socialist policies.
Oddly enough, LewRockwell.com had something today that is very applicable here.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022320.html
One-fifth of adult Americans still believe in government by consent, i.e., the right of secession, according to a Zogby/Middlebury Institute poll. The highest percentage of believers in peaceful secession was among Hispanics (43%) and African-Americans (40%).
Interestingly, the more time one spends in government schools (which is to say, all but a small handful in the entire country)the less likely one is to support government by consent. The unspoken corollary here is that if the people do not have the right to secede, then the state assumes the "right" to invade, murder, and destroy them and their state, all the while calling it "the glory of the coming of the Lord" or some other Lincolnite slogan.
liberty student: I'm not trying to re-arrange my life so I can do something low risk. I think the FSP is a joke, and besides, who the hell wants to immigrate to an emerging police state? Your country is seriously screwed up, not that mine isn't, but in Canada, people are complacent and docile, not stupid. A lot of the rank and file, Joe Publics in the US actually think a Russian invasion of Georgia means that Putin has come for your peaches. That's really damn sad. What attracts me to the LC, is that if you can try it, and live, even if it collapses, you can learn a lot, and you can gain a lot of attention for the effort. I'm talking about at worst, being able to lecture, interview and write about it, and if it works, even for a shortwhile, wow, there is so much Libertarians can learn, so many people might be inspired, it's like a Ron Paul campaign. Big risk, big reward. So, nothing ventured, nothing gained in my opinion. I want to interact with people, not get a degree or 4 and write books and have an academic blog. I respect some of the people who do that, but it's not enough for all of us to blog and write articles, to discuss on liberty oriented message boards. We're kidding ourselves if we think that is going to get it done.
Please! Do the koolaid thing! It will give everyone on this forum a break from having to see your avatar pop up.