Note: I'm a 22 year old economics major.
So I made a passing comment about Rothbard in class to one of my economics teachers, and now I've apparently inadvertantly created an adversary out of her. Her response was automatically demeaning and insulting, very plainly explaining she thought Rothbard was laughable, and I suppose by extension, Austrians in general. She became antagonistic and later made passive aggressive, ad hominem comments about my bandana, in a class of several hundred students. Childish, to say the least.
Has anyone else had similar experiences in the world of academia?
I haven't encountered any bias by economics professors. Most are either ignorant of it, and one I've had is actually an Austrian of the Misesian-Hayekian strand. Your professor sounds like an ignorant moron, no offence. If you know Rothbard's work well enough, you should press her into elaborating as to why he's laughable. In all likelihood, she'll have no answer and look like an idiot, or she will regurgitate typical neoclassical retorts, e.g. Austrianism doesn't adhere to the phantom known as the "scientific method". Just be careful how hard you push someone who grades your papers...
The most opposition I encountered was by a philosophy professor of mine. He wasn't intimately familiar with the Austrian School, but he had a strong anti-market bias, and so by extension anti-Austrian bias. I think few in the mainstream understand Austrian claims, and are driven away from them due to a tribal rejection of the unknown.
-Jon
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Oh, absolutely, hence my predicament -- I don't want to create any more bad feelings than apparently already exist. I'd like to challenge her, but since she was so tart in her response right away, I'd be afraid to push it much more.
She's already chatted up the scientific method today. So I suppose you're a bit prophetic.
Right now we're actually discussing the neccessity of government to enforce the proverbial 'rules of the game'.
There'd be chaos without the stability of government, etc.
Unless you're clued up in methodology, I think you should let it go for now. When you have time read either Human Action or Man, Economy and State (you may prefer this as a starter, as it is more akin to mainstream instruction of economics.) Mises, like most economists, is not hostile to the (ultraminimal) state (so her second objection is irrelevant), whereas Rothbard argues that a complete analysis of the free market must assume a free market in every domain. She's assuming what she ought to prove, and from a scientific POV, all that is necessary for the market is property rights, regardless of who shall enforce them. Mises's, Rothbard's and Hoppe's (as well as some other) texts on methodology will address the bogeyman of the "scientific" method (i.e. applying the methods of physics to social sciences as she wants to, which is actually just scientism.)
I'm actually in the process of reading Human Action right now. I've already read through several other Rothbardian works and have been following the Mises Institute for some time now, though I just decided today that I was tired of striking at it alone. I've been completely unable to find any like-minded individuals on campus.
I've made it through "Indirect Exchange", so I've still a bit to go.
I'm an economics major myself (23 y/o). I've never mentioned the Austrian school to my professors and never will. Just think about it: If you've built your whole professional career and spent your whole life developing certain ideas, you're going to have an extremely strong bias against trying to understand any criticism of them. Even if you eventually do realise that something isn't quite right with your theories, you're not going to admit that you've been wrong for your whole life. People's egos are far too big to ever admit something like that, even if it's just to themselves. Not to mention their professional career, reputation and income would be on the line.
Too true. My professor had to constantly suppress Austrian teachings in his capacity as a professor. He did sneak in certain notions, like time preference, but only where he could get away with it.
I suppose that is the most logical of ideas, self-preservation.
I generally haven't brought up any Austrian points during conversation in economic classes -- I just take notes and stay quiet. most of the time...Though in other classes, such as literary classes, I find it quite amusing to bring up libertarian and austrian ideas. Usually makes for feisty and entertaining conversation!
Can't you report her to some kind of school body? Humiliate her in return.
Political Atheists Blog
I wouldn't look to do that unless it was a persistent thing. Other than this one occurance, she's been an amiable, if not a bit frantic in class. She seems like a rather nice lady, socially speaking. Who knows, she might have just had a bad morning.
If it becomes an issue, I'll have no issue going over her head to her superiors or finding an appropriate course of action.
I'm just a guy trying to get his piece of paper so he can start his education. =]
I had a professor who I knew from volunteer work with the local Congressman. The Congresman was a democrat, so he assumed I was. I took her Intro. to PoliSci class later and wrote a final paper from the prompt "describe your political ideology." He didn't grade my paper but called me into his office. To my left was a "shrine" to Obama with a picture and little bowl full of candy offerings.
He didn't believe I wrote the paper. He accused me of "either plagiarisation or paying someone to write the paper." For some reason, his steorotype of me (even though he had never seen my bandana!) was of a dipshit kid who was a democrat. He told me to read the Federalist papers. I told him I did. Confused, he suggested Tocqueville; I recited some of my favorite quotes from him. Eventually, I played dumb and catered to his image of me. Walking out of his office I was humilated.
He gave me a B in the class for "not following the prompt." He thinks I'm a Republican now for some reason. He wouldn't tell me his political views. Though the active democrats did well in his classes...
Worse yet, he is the Director of the Political Science Department.
Meh, I suppose that's the way of things most of the time. Unfortunate and sad.
I have found that Hoppe actually rings very clearly to the average Joe when it comes to issue of personal liberty. For some reason people like the idea of anarchism when it isn't titled anarchism.
Well considering one of my professors posts on here, and most people at my school agree with it, no theres no bias here.
Duffmann, where do you go?
Remember who signs their paycheck.
The fallacies of intellectual communism, a compilation - On the nature of power
Stranger: Remember who signs their paycheck.
That's true. He should switch majors lest he become them later on.
Seiesnalli: Has anyone else had similar experiences in the world of academia?
I am a 23 y/o business econ major, and I have had a lot of fun debating austrian ideas with my non austrian professors. I think that it helps that there is a self proclaimed austrian anarchist in the econ department.
I would suggest being non confrontational and not saying the full extent of your views until you have built some sort of relationship with your professors. If you are interested in learning and present your objections in the form of questions, you will do better for their egos. I took Money and banking from a New Keynsian professor, and really tried to understand where the mainstream thinkers were coming from. I think that my prof. was impressed with my ceriousity and annoyed because I asked too many questions. However, she did get me a university sponsored trip to an economic conferance, where I got to ask SF Fed president Yellen what she thought of Ron Paul's idea of abolishing the fed, and what she thought about the fact that the book was a best seller.
University of Missouri-St. Louis
I am a Bachelors/Masters student, but if the professors dont teach or agree with the Austrians they at least respect it.
Quite a few Libertarians here.
I don't suppose anybody is aware of universities in the UK with Austrians or Libertarians on the staff?
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
The University of Buckinham. One of their courses on regulation is explicitly Austrian, and there is Austrian/Austrian-friendly faculty. One of the professors at Lancaster University is also a Hayekian-Austrian.
Isn't the food in England terrible though?
No.
DavidBarry:I think that it helps that there is a self proclaimed austrian anarchist in the econ department.
Who is that, if it is not secret?
DavidBarry - "However, she did get me a university sponsored trip to an economic conferance, where I got to ask SF Fed president Yellen what she thought of Ron Paul's idea of abolishing the fed, and what she thought about the fact that the book was a best seller."
What was her reply?
YI YI YI!
We're discussing how the government "stabilizes" and "effectively regulates" the economy and keeps the market from going "unfettered".
This is that kind of occassion where I have to occupy myself with thinking of other things lest I get involved in the conversation.
[such as posting on forums during class....]
http://www.mises.org/classroom/gradschool.pdf
That is a pretty good paper to read if you are looking for Austrian oriented schools.
I'd be interested in a US regional list.
I'm just a three hour drive from the Institute itself, actually, and hope to attend one of the speaking events soon.
That list has quite a few schools. Personally, I am aiming for George Mason for my PhD....
scineram: DavidBarry:I think that it helps that there is a self proclaimed austrian anarchist in the econ department. Who is that, if it is not secret?
Allen Dalton. I am taking Radical econ from him this fall and intermediate macro in the spring. He used to post on the mises.org forums some time ago.
http://ec.boisestate.edu/faculty/dalton.htm
Oh I remember this guy! He used to post on the old Austrian forum. I had no idea he's an anarchist though. Great person, very well informed.
At first I thought the header was "Academic Bias against Authoritarianism" to which I would have replied, no, not really.
There is mostly ignorance and apathy toward austrian economics by most professors/teachers. Libertarianism is usually not thought of too highly though.
Yeah, I inquired to a teach if she knew of any staff of the Rothbardian bent...She replied with, "Who?...Oh, OH, those libertarian people. No."
Seiesnalli: Note: I'm a 22 year old economics major. So I made a passing comment about Rothbard in class to one of my economics teachers, and now I've apparently inadvertantly created an adversary out of her. Her response was automatically demeaning and insulting, very plainly explaining she thought Rothbard was laughable, and I suppose by extension, Austrians in general. She became antagonistic and later made passive aggressive, ad hominem comments about my bandana, in a class of several hundred students. Childish, to say the least. Has anyone else had similar experiences in the world of academia?
Ditto Stranger (Remember who signs their paychecks)!! And what I would like to know from Seiesnalli is why do you think you NEED that piece of paper to prove your knowledge?!? Far as I can tell, 90% of what is 'taught' in classes is from some book. Why not just read what you find provides you the best and most informative input? I can't help but wonder what you think a degree in economics will do for your (working) life? Look at Grabbie Greenspan - all that knowledge and a big sell out for $$$ in the end. Too bad Rand didn't live to rip the rug out from under his double talking self.
I'm seriously NOT an economics student - in the sense that you are pursuing - but I didn't have to go to college to read Hayek, Rothbard and Harry Browne, who I feel is the best of the lot - practical kknowledge!
Jain
For a discussion of Scientism see Hayek's The Counter-Revolution of Science. Of course, I've never read it cover to cover because of its density. But I have dipped into it and found it useful for papers and whatnot.
Another useful and accessible source is Rothbard’s controversial essay, “The Mantel of Science.”
Seiesnalli: This is that kind of occassion where I have to occupy myself with thinking of other things lest I get involved in the conversation.
I know what you mean. I wrote something like 60 pages of manuscript for one of my novels during my micro class. My prof was an adjunct, and really didn't know a darn thing about economics. She taught the text, which was basically neo-Keynesian, and any time I raised an objection she was completely bewildered. I felt bad for her so I just worked on my book.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
We should not shy away from the scientific method. History is living proof of the failures of statism.
History makes no sense unless it is analyzed through the lense of economic theory.
Of course, pot hoc rationalisations can make sense of anything. :). I'm afraid history is confined to be nothing more than "stamp collecting".
Post hoc? I'm afraid there's nothing post hoc about a priori theory.