Communism freed people from the evil Capitalist by making them slaves of their ruling class.
Libertarianism would free the people from their oppressive govt and useless voting system. One govt under one Nation would be replaced by anarchy.
Communism ended all poverty and rich class. It then created a starving middle class.
Libertarianism plans to end all poverty by eliminating govt......only two classes........super rich and middle class. In fact what they would do is to make Marx fear a complete reality. Capitalists and slave workers. I wonder what answer Libertarianism has for the most profitable of all enterprises....WAR......maybe they also plan to stop war (already happening for thousands of years) by killing govt.
Communism gave justice to its people.........but they could not defend themselves from govt.
Well, under Libertarianism you are free, buy yourself a lawyer (wait there is no judicial system) so buy a gun.
Conclusion:
Botch Communism and Libertarianism are two extremes aiming at the same target with very similar outcomes. GOD BLESS AMERICA.
Cesar: Libertarianism plans to end all poverty by eliminating govt......only two classes........super rich and middle class. In fact what they would do is to make Marx fear a complete reality. Capitalists and slave workers. I wonder what answer Libertarianism has for the most profitable of all enterprises....WAR......maybe they also plan to stop war (already happening for thousands of years) by killing govt.
My broken window fallacy detector is going through the roof!
warfare, like all expense, can be profitable by bringing new goods into existence but like all expense, it eats up the capital used to create even more goods. So basically warfare is not the most profitable of enterprises; peace and saving are.
Cesar:Well, under Libertarianism you are free, buy yourself a lawyer (wait there is no judicial system) so buy a gun.
you could buy a gun but it is false there will be no legal system in anarchy. There will rather, be many competing legal agencies all selected by the market for at least upholding the non-aggresion principle.
I wonder what answer Libertarianism has for the most profitable of all enterprises....WAR......maybe they also plan to stop war (already happening for thousands of years) by killing govt.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Troll.
Yea, this writting style is confusing.
Cesar: Communism freed people from the evil Capitalist by making them slaves of their ruling class. Libertarianism would free the people from their oppressive govt and useless voting system. One govt under one Nation would be replaced by anarchy. Communism ended all poverty and rich class. It then created a starving middle class. Libertarianism plans to end all poverty by eliminating govt......only two classes........super rich and middle class. In fact what they would do is to make Marx fear a complete reality. Capitalists and slave workers. I wonder what answer Libertarianism has for the most profitable of all enterprises....WAR......maybe they also plan to stop war (already happening for thousands of years) by killing govt. Communism gave justice to its people.........but they could not defend themselves from govt. Well, under Libertarianism you are free, buy yourself a lawyer (wait there is no judicial system) so buy a gun. Conclusion: Botch Communism and Libertarianism are two extremes aiming at the same target with very similar outcomes. GOD BLESS AMERICA.
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
Cesar: Libertarianism plans to end all poverty by eliminating govt......only two classes........super rich and middle class. In fact what they would do is to make Marx fear a complete reality. Capitalists and slave workers.
Libertarianism plans to end all poverty by eliminating govt......only two classes........super rich and middle class. In fact what they would do is to make Marx fear a complete reality. Capitalists and slave workers.
Why would there be "slave workers?" What's wrong with being a "capitalist"? What is your definition of capitalist? If you're going to make assertions- at least explain your reasoning.
Edit: By the way- just my two cents but I don't see the point in calling people like Cesar an idiot or whatnot. Beliefs that free-markets will only result in injustice and inequality is extremely common- and since more new people are searching for the Austrian school and coming to this forum all the time- they'll definitely be turned off when someone else who shares their views is called an idiot and they won't bother to learn any more after that. The idea that free-markets cause slave labor is commonly accepted- and I think that if we're going to reply to these types of posts at all- might as well engage in the debate. Although I suppose you guys have been debunking it for so long it gets annoying.
Troll Hunting Rule #34: Look for large/bold fonts and underlines.
I would actually reply seriously in this space, but there really isn't anything to reply to. Cesar, if you wish to be taken seriously, please refrain from making assertions with zero thought or logic behind them.
Market anarchist, Linux geek, aspiring Perl hacker, and student of the neo-Aristotelians, the classical individualist anarchists, and the Austrian school.
Just because a view is common does not make it intelligent. Cesar used IDIOTIC logic to draw his conclusion. Sorry. I find his posts intellectually insulting.
auctionguy10:Edit: By the way- just my two cents but I don't see the point in calling people like Cesar an idiot or whatnot. Beliefs that free-markets will only result in injustice and inequality is extremely common- and since more new people are searching for the Austrian school and coming to this forum all the time- they'll definitely be turned off when someone else who shares their views is called an idiot and they won't bother to learn any more after that. The idea that free-markets cause slave labor is commonly accepted- and I think that if we're going to reply to these types of posts at all- might as well engage in the debate. Although I suppose you guys have been debunking it for so long it gets annoying.
Generally you are right, but yesterday Cesar admitted that his inconsistent world view makes it ok to murder and steal if the ends justifies it.
So yes, we should be friendlier to new people, but I think Cesar is a lost cause, because he not only refuses to self educate, he actually believe in total evil and immorality as a proper way to live.
You do realise, you just said
Freedom is slavery
Literally, you said exactly that.
Welcome to 1984.
Can me remove this rambling idiot? Him and Ruben.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
Would you also have me removed from your free market society if you ever succeed on it???
What do you advice in that case?? To go back to Cuba or another country of my liking???
GilesStratton: You do realise, you just said Freedom is slavery Literally, you said exactly that. Welcome to 1984. Can me remove this rambling idiot? Him and Ruben.
You accidentally quoted me.
That is the problem. Cesar worldview is full of contradictions and rather than try and sort them out, he'll name call us as stupid or misguided.
He literally does believe that you have to be society's slave, in order to be free. Although you should read more carefully, because Cesar doesn't make many points about liberty, He takes it for granted he is free as it is clear he doesn't see any moral or philosophical reason why it is not only good, but economically advantageous to be free.
liberty student: You accidentally quoted me. That is the problem. Cesar worldview is full of contradictions and rather than try and sort them out, he'll name call us as stupid or misguided. He literally does believe that you have to be society's slave, in order to be free. Although you should read more carefully, because Cesar doesn't make many points about liberty, He takes it for granted he is free as it is clear he doesn't see any moral or philosophical reason why it is not only good, but economically advantageous to be free.
They're rather useful as strawmen and reputation enhancer. They make yourself look really good by destroying a statist's actual idiotic assertions. Whether they are intentional trolls or just closed minded is anyone's guess since stupidity can just easily be mistaken for malice.
Admittedly, I am baised toward free-for-all forums where people are allowed to express their opinions, no matter how idiotic and insane.(Except spams)
http://libregamewiki.org - The world's only encyclopedia on free(as in freedom) gaming.
Cesar:Have you lived in communism??
Yes.
Cesar: Every had a gun in your mouth???
Not in my mouth, but the state has pointed a gun at me.
Cesar: Ever being told want to do, eat, think, read and watch on tv???
Yep, every day.
Cesar: Every being forced to work???
Read my lips. No new taxes.
Cesar: IF YOU HAVEN'T WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT SLAVERY AND FREEDOM.
Well, I know about slavery and freedom, because you don't know me. Just because you were a slave, who thinks he is free, but is still a slave, doesn't make you more knowledgeable or qualified to discuss these topics than anyone else. In fact, you are intentionally anti-intellectual and fanatical about these topics, which is probably either
1. Why it was so easy to enslave you.
-or-
2. Why you insist upon staying a slave.
Until you are willing to be intellectually honest in your discussions, you will remain a slave, you will remain without health care and education, you will not understand why the police taser your family members, or why you can't find a job because there is a global depression.
When you decide to be rational and honest, you might begin to understand these things, and while it won't make you happier about things, it will arm you against the false hope of scraps from the master's table.
Cesar: Would you also have me removed from your free market society if you ever succeed on it??? What do you advice in that case?? To go back to Cuba or another country of my liking???
Yes, I wouldn't care if you went to the gulag to be quite honest.
kiba: Admittedly, I am baised toward free-for-all forums where people are allowed to express their opinions, no matter how idiotic and insane.(Except spams)
Spoken by someone who has never owned, maintained or ran a forum I presume?
Free for all communities become tragedy of the commons. A property owner who allows anyone to do anything on his property, at all times, ends up with something that has been destroyed and disrespected. It takes a long time to build a community with a bulk of the members, knowledgeable and respectful to ownership and the positive growth of the board.
While if you own a forum, you could certainly do what you want, a free for all inevitably becomes chaos, and not in a good way.
LIBERTY STUDENT
I really doubt you answers were true. However it really does not fit in my head how someone goes trough all that ............lives in the USA or Europe and still feels a slave.
With all respect I do know great psychologists that would gradly talk to you.
Since you told me yesterday you would steal from me against my will, and even kill me if you thought you needed the money for something else and I wouldn't give it up, I too would like to see you go far away. If what you wrote was honest, then you would be a threat to me in the physical world. While I wish you no harm, you have told me aggressive violence is how you conduct commerce.
Cesar: I really doubt you answers were true. However it really does not fit in my head how someone goes trough all that ............lives in the USA or Europe and still feels a slave.
I live in Canada. And I am still a slave. My country won't even allow me to renounce my citizenship and become stateless. They insist I am their property. Do you call that freedom?
Cesar: With all respect I do know great psychologists that would gradly talk to you.
It is a juvenile tactic to insist that someone you disagree with is crazy. You should listen to Lew Rockwell's podcast today about psychiatry. It was originally cooked up to get undesirables (people like me, who don't want to be slaves) out of society even when we have broken no laws, only asked for our freedom.
Again, you want to steal from me and kill me, so why shouldn't I expect that you try to use the psychiatric medical complex against me? This is Cesar justice. This is Cesar liberty. This is Cesar freedom.
EXACTLY. That's what would happen under Libertarianism. You just proved to be a sick guy, who under the name of an Ideal would have me killed for disagreeing with him and misspelling words.
AWESOME. thank you for revealing yourself. I will join the FBI to secretly destroy you (at least in my system that is allowed).
GilesStratton: Cesar: Would you also have me removed from your free market society if you ever succeed on it??? What do you advice in that case?? To go back to Cuba or another country of my liking??? Yes, I wouldn't care if you went to the gulag to be quite honest.
LIBERTY STUDENT:
I know this much: At least in Canada you are closer to total freedom that what you would be under Libertarianism. If you call the present system of both Canada and US a system of slavery, murder and theft then yes, I would be proud to be called all that.
Cesar: I have a few questions for you all??? Have you lived in communism?? Every had a gun in your mouth??? Ever being told want to do, eat, think, read and watch on tv??? Every being forced to work??? IF YOU HAVEN'T WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU KNOW ABOUT SLAVERY AND FREEDOM. liberty student: You accidentally quoted me. That is the problem. Cesar worldview is full of contradictions and rather than try and sort them out, he'll name call us as stupid or misguided. He literally does believe that you have to be society's slave, in order to be free. Although you should read more carefully, because Cesar doesn't make many points about liberty, He takes it for granted he is free as it is clear he doesn't see any moral or philosophical reason why it is not only good, but economically advantageous to be free.
First, you have an image problem. The way you write is just going to make you look bad. Proper grammar and proper spelling is necessary if you want somebody to seriously listen to you.
Second of all, you attacked the forum posters' authorities(lack of experience) rather than their opinion(actual statement that is revelant to the matter). Smart debaters can use your fallicious attack to undermine whatever vaild argument you hold(and your character in the process). From my observation, these anarchists are not to be underestmated for their retheortical skills.
Cesar, you told me you would murder and steal from me. How is it you are the victim here?
Also, gulags would not exist in a libertarian society. Libertarianism means everyone is free, and no one is a slave. People like you who want to murder and steal have to live under the state to accomplish your goals. In a libertarian society, you wouldn't have the police to protect you if you murdered and stole from people.
Cesar: I really doubt you answers were true. However it really does not fit in my head how someone goes trough all that ............lives in the USA or Europe and still feels a slave. With all respect I do know great psychologists that would gradly talk to you.
Cesar, there is no magical line in the sand.There is no level of acceptable slavery. Enslave me for one hour a day rather than the whole day, I'm still a slave. Government always grows. The second you allow an inch, they will take a mile.
This is why even in 'free' countries such as the US, we fight the slavery they impose upon us. Sure, its better than Cuba (where i'm assuming you're from, sorry if i'm wrong). But being better than Cuba doens't make us free. Some slaveowners were polite to their slaves, never beat them, didnt abuse them any way at all. Gave them ample food, good shelter, etc. Did they have no right to be upset? Were they not slaves? Your viewpoint seems to be that they had no right to complain because others had it worse. We argue that slavery is slavery, no matter what.
I never said I'd go to the effort of doing it, you're not worth that much. I just said I'd be more than happy to see you removed from liberarian society. Which would be perfectly acceptable. In fact democrats, socialists and the like would be removed.
Until then, can we not remove you from our forums?
Juan:Cesar, I imagine you're a cuban who left cuba because you didn't like commies. The irony, which you can't grasp, is that you yourself are a commie and don't mind enslaving people, as long as the slavery is not as obvious as it is in cuba.
Great post Juan. You have properly diagnosed the situation. I suppose the same goes for Ruben, who had disdain for Chavez, not realizing that he also endorsed Chavez's same tactics as an appropriate way of reform.
Cesar: LIBERTY STUDENT: I know this much: At least in Canada you are closer to total freedom that what you would be under Libertarianism. If you call the present system of both Canada and US a system of slavery, murder and theft then yes, I would be proud to be called all that.
Of course you would be proud. You wrote yesterday that if you wanted to take money from me, you would steal it, and if I opposed you, you would kill me for it. That is why you like slavery. You're no different than Castro in tactic, you only believe you are different in motive and result.
And you don't know anything about libertarianism, so it is ridiculous for you to continue to make assertions that it would be less free. How can you be less free if you are absolutely free?
I dont care who takes me seriously or not. English is not my first language, in fact I dont have an official first language. It is hard for me to put things in writing, even harder to talk about the real world with philosophers who think they know about freedom and slavery. You are all Rebels trapped in your own ideas trying to evade the hard reality that freedom is just a state of mind like everything else and no matter how hard you try you will always be a SLAVE.The very same ideal you think would drive you free is bringing you pain because it will remain just that, an ideal to be read in your books.
As you well said it does not matter if you are a 100% slave in Cuba, 50% slave in the US or 40% slave in Canada...........it is what it is. Only the masters achieve a 100% freedom at the expense of their slaves..........and that's exactly what I think Libertarianism would do...........and that's why I believe Communism and Libertarianism are two faces of the same coin.
Look at nature, it is perfect on itself. Yet plants and animals have no intellect but they do a 100% of what they are meant to do. But we humans we still dont even know who we are. I think authority prevents humans from killing each other and you think otherwise. Our Socio-Economic life reflects our only universal nature, "imperfection (not like nature).
AS I told you..........I am not free. My presece in these forums is at the mercy of those in powers to ban me. So???
GilesStratton: I never said I'd go to the effort of doing it, you're not worth that much. I just said I'd be more than happy to see you removed from liberarian society. Which would be perfectly acceptable. In fact democrats, socialists and the like would be removed. Until then, can we not remove you from our forums?
Cesar:You are all Rebels trapped in your own ideas trying to evade the hard reality that freedom is just a state of mind like everything else and no matter how hard you try you will always be a SLAVE.
Spoken like one so resigned to escapism he can't distinguish between mind and reality and so accuses everyone else of his own weakness and frustration.
Cesar:Only the masters achieve a 100% freedom at the expense of their slaves..........and that's exactly what I think Libertarianism would do
Then present your argument... if you have one.
Diminishing Marginal Utility - IT'S THE LAW!
Cesar:Our Socio-Economic life reflects our only universal nature, "imperfection (not like nature).
Cesar:I dont care who takes me seriously or not.
Cesar:It is hard for me to put things in writing, even harder to talk about the real world with philosophers who think they know about freedom and slavery. You are all Rebels trapped in your own ideas trying to evade the hard reality that freedom is just a state of mind like everything else and no matter how hard you try you will always be a SLAVE.The very same ideal you think would drive you free is bringing you pain because it will remain just that, an ideal to be read in your books.
Cesar:As you well said it does not matter if you are a 100% slave in Cuba, 50% slave in the US or 40% slave in Canada...........it is what it is. Only the masters achieve a 100% freedom at the expense of their slaves..........and that's exactly what I think Libertarianism would do...........and that's why I believe Communism and Libertarianism are two faces of the same coin.
Cesar:Look at nature, it is perfect on itself. Yet plants and animals have no intellect but they do a 100% of what they are meant to do. But we humans we still dont even know who we are. I think authority prevents humans from killing each other and you think otherwise. Our Socio-Economic life reflects our only universal nature, "imperfection (not like nature).
But your whole philosophy does not even have a point of referense but the internet.
I think it would be ok for me to think that Jesus will come some day...........will stablish his kingdom and we will be free.
No society has ever lived under anything similar to Libertarianism.
Since humanity is around, authority exist..........what's your problem with that??? Are you smoking??
Cesar:LIBERTY STUDENT: But your whole philosophy does not even have a point of referense but the internet. I think it would be ok for me to think that Jesus will come some day...........will stablish his kingdom and we will be free. No society has ever lived under anything similar to Libertarianism. Since humanity is around, authority exist..........what's your problem with that??? Are you smoking??