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Immigration one last time

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Sage Posted: Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:25 PM | Locked

I've posted a sequel to my original article on immigration:

Immigration II: Electric Boogaloo

My argument is that even if we accept Hoppe's rights argument, his conclusion still violates libertarian principles.

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Nick. B replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 6:52 PM | Locked

And I'll say it again: RECRUIT ILLEGAL ALIEN! Thank you for your time. Cool

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:29 PM | Locked

You're still under the delusion that open borders is not a government institution.

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:33 PM | Locked

Stranger:

You're still under the delusion that open borders is not a government institution.

This is like saying "You are still under the delusion that open marijuana use is not a government institution."

I am an eklektarchist not an anarchist.

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:40 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:

Stranger:

You're still under the delusion that open borders is not a government institution.

This is like saying "You are still under the delusion that open marijuana use is not a government institution."

It would be if government allowed marijuana use in public against taxpayers' will.

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:43 PM | Locked

Define "public". Is a Cyprus Hill concert "public"?

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:44 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:

Define "public". Is a Cyprus Hill concert "public"?

On public property.

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:48 PM | Locked

Stranger:

ryanpatgray:

Define "public". Is a Cyprus Hill concert "public"?

On public property.

If public property is your concern would you be upset if I hired an illegal immigrant form Lichtenstein to clean my house?

I am an eklektarchist not an anarchist.

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:54 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:

Stranger:

ryanpatgray:

Define "public". Is a Cyprus Hill concert "public"?

On public property.

If public property is your concern would you be upset if I hired an illegal immigrant form Lichtenstein to clean my house?

You can hire anyone to do anything you want in your house, so long as they don't enter public property.

I hope you have a teleportation machine.

 

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 8:58 PM | Locked

I have an automobile. Their feet need not touch the asphalt. This is obviously a concern of yours because the asphalt will magically crumble if it is touched by an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:04 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:

I have an automobile. Their feet need not touch the asphalt. This is obviously a concern of yours because the asphalt will magically crumble if it is touched by an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

You're going to drive them back and forth to Lichtenstein every day?

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10Brandonr replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:05 PM | Locked

This is ridiculous... 

Thank You - Brandon

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:10 PM | Locked

Stranger:

ryanpatgray:

I have an automobile. Their feet need not touch the asphalt. This is obviously a concern of yours because the asphalt will magically crumble if it is touched by an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

You're going to drive them back and forth to Lichtenstein every day?

No, to their apartment in the Lichtensteinian barrio.

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Juan replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:11 PM | Locked
Stranger:
You can hire anyone to do anything you want in your house, so long as they don't enter public property.
What makes you think that you and your little nationalist gang have the right to dictate how stolen property can be used ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:13 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:

Stranger:

ryanpatgray:

I have an automobile. Their feet need not touch the asphalt. This is obviously a concern of yours because the asphalt will magically crumble if it is touched by an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

You're going to drive them back and forth to Lichtenstein every day?

No, to their apartment in the Lichtensteinian barrio.

There's no such thing as a Lichtenstein ghetto. Open borders gives them the right to live anywhere they want, in any community they want, and there's nothing you or I can do about it.

 

Juan:
Stranger:
You can hire anyone to do anything you want in your house, so long as they don't enter public property.
What makes you think that you and your little nationalist gang have the right to dictate how stolen property can be used ?

Because it was stolen from us.

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Juan replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:18 PM | Locked
Sage:
My argument is that even if we accept Hoppe's rights argument, his conclusion still violates libertarian principles.
Of course. But anti-immigration people are not concerned with libertarian principles. What they want is racial purity. An objection like "enforcing borders means shooting people" carries no weight with them, since they can always claim that (paid) usage of public roads is a violation of the NAP and trespassers can be shot.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Nick. B replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:21 PM | Locked

Government "public property"=STOLEN PROPERTY!

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Juan replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:21 PM | Locked
Stranger:
Because it was stolen from us.
Too bad there are taxpayers that also own it and don't want to restrict immigration. What are you going to do ? Vote ? Remember, you belong to the hoppe cult ; democracy bad. monarchy god. democracy bad. I hope you're not going to advocate majority rule ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:22 PM | Locked

Nick. B:

Government "public property"=STOLEN PROPERTY!

Right, and we want it back.

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:23 PM | Locked

Stranger:

There's no such thing as a Lichtenstein ghetto. Open borders gives them the right to live anywhere they want, in any community they want, and there's nothing you or I can do about it.

People often choose to live in close proximity for cultural reasons. I live in a city in Florida with a fairly good sized Amish population (no joke here) and all of these Amish people were born in the United States. They choose to live together for cultural reasons and to preserve their language, culture etc.

Stranger:
Because it was stolen from us.
Some of that money was stolen from me and I choose to use my portion to help transport an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

 

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Juan replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:27 PM | Locked
Nick:
Government "public property"=STOLEN PROPERTY!
Stranger:
Right, and we want it back.
Frankly, I don't see why you think you've a right to it. Let me remind you that for you the concept of legitimacy is meaningless. The gov't controls the land so it belongs to the government - ownership is exclusive control and all that. As long as your utilitarian view of things goes, that's the end of the story.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:29 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:
Some of that money was stolen from me and I choose to use my portion to help transport an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

And now you understand the tragedy of public ownership. Everyone and no one is right.

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Sage replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:34 PM | Locked

Stranger:

You're still under the delusion that open borders is not a government institution.

Stranger, I used to think that both open and closed borders were government institutions. But then I realized that open borders are the same thing as no borders. With open borders, there is no government institution; just private property borders remain. With closed borders however, the government imposes itself and takes control of private property borders. And since there are no borders under anarchy, the problem cannot be with open borders, but with something else, viz. government property and antidiscrimination laws.

Your thoughts?

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ryanpatgray replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:35 PM | Locked

Stranger:

ryanpatgray:
Some of that money was stolen from me and I choose to use my portion to help transport an illegal immigrant from Lichtenstein.

And now you understand the tragedy of public ownership. Everyone and no one is right.

I have long understood the tragedy of public ownership. I also think that public ownership, so long as it exists at all, should be interpreted for MAXIMUM LIBERTY. This way we can legitimately cheer as protesters harass politicians even if we would not tolerate such behavior in our own homes. We can consistently cheer as people file into the middle of a congressional session preventing a vote on raising taxes. Am I making sense here? Using your theory of public ownership Congress would have a "right" to throw such people out of their buildings.

 

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David Z replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:37 PM | Locked

Stranger:

ryanpatgray:

Stranger:

You're still under the delusion that open borders is not a government institution.

This is like saying "You are still under the delusion that open marijuana use is not a government institution."

It would be if government allowed marijuana use in public against taxpayers' will.

ZOMG! WTF?  What about the many taxpayers against whose will marijuana decriminilization is not?

The fatal assumption in your retort is that "taxpayers" are homogenous.  News flash: they're not.

============================

David Z

"The issue is always the same, the government or the market.  There is no third solution."

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:44 PM | Locked

Sage:

Stranger:

You're still under the delusion that open borders is not a government institution.

Stranger, I used to think that both open and closed borders were government institutions. But then I realized that open borders are the same thing as no borders. With open borders, there is no government institution; just private property borders remain. With closed borders however, the government imposes itself and takes control of private property borders. And since there are no borders under anarchy, the problem cannot be with open borders, but with something else, viz. government property and antidiscrimination laws.

Your thoughts?

My thoughts is that there are even more borders under anarchy, so your argument is based on false assumptions.

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Stranger replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:47 PM | Locked

ryanpatgray:
I have long understood the tragedy of public ownership. I also think that public ownership, so long as it exists at all, should be interpreted for MAXIMUM LIBERTY.

Maximum liberty is the liberty to use one's own property. You do not own public property and therefore cannot claim the right to determine what takes place upon it.

ryanpatgray:
This way we can legitimately cheer as protesters harass politicians even if we would not tolerate such behavior in our own homes.

You have confirmed the thesis that open-borders advocates are anti-social and want to create public disorder.

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Jon Irenicus replied on Wed, Dec 3 2008 9:50 PM | Locked

There's an active thread on this matter. This adds nothing new to the discussion. I am closing this thread. Please do not duplicate threads on the same topic, when there is already one addressing the issue.

Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...

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