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Re: Brainpolice's statements in "You are free to leave..."

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Daniel Waite posted on Sat, Jan 17 2009 7:51 PM | Locked

Brainpolice said:
For example, one's ownership over their home, even if it is a just case of ownership, does not give you the right to assault and murder people just because they are in one's home. In other words, property rights do not trump life and liberty.

That strikes me as odd. I thought... well, I remember reading two very poignant scenarios in which consistency in justice must prevail over liberal morality if consistency is to be maintained.

One example was that a man who has been lost in the woods for days and is on the verge of dying comes onto your cabin property and begins shuffling through your kitchen. You shoot him. Are you in the wrong or the right? The article said in the right -- for you were defending your property.

If you invite a friend over for dinner and then shank him as soon as he enters the door, well, that certainly feels different, but why is one okay and not the other (at least according to my understanding of BP's statements)?

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 4:29 PM | Locked
nirgrahamUK:
at the point in time we are considering, after the slap, there is no issue of B acting in self-defence against A. There is nothing to defend. A has finished administering the slap, its done, sunk cost. move along nothing to see here.
So ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 4:30 PM | Locked
lol, here we go with appeals to authority....
Haha. You're kind of out of your depth. The thing is, appeals to authority do appeal to people like LS. I'm afraid he doesn't deserve any better.

Or were you referring to Kinsella and so called estoppel ? If that's the case I'd love to hear your take on it. It seems that a lawyer (Kinsella) and somebody who sounds like a budding lawyer use the same concept to justify A and not-A. It's quite interesting...

Anyway, you have miserably failed to show how the application of the NAP leads to regard cold blood murder as a non-aggressive behaviour. The only thing you did is use circular arguments which hint that you are just a legal positivist playing word games.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 4:42 PM | Locked

Juan:
You're kind of out of your depth.

pot, kettle, black.

 

Juan:
Or were you referring to Kinsella and so called estoppel ? If that's the case I'd love to hear your take on it. It seems that a lawyer (Kinsella) and somebody who sounds like a budding lawyer use the same concept to justify A and not-A. It's quite interesting...

perhaps you didnt notice but Kinsella's document that you jumped on was concerned with a theory of punishment and not self-defence. perhaps you can tell me which of the two we have been focused on throughout?

Juan:
Anyway, you have miserably failed to show how the application of the NAP leads to regard cold blood murder as a non-aggressive behaviour. The only thing you did is use circular arguments which hint that you are just a legal positivist playing word games.

juan, to put it to you as to a baby, without all the qualification and enlightened talk which i have expanded on profusely (to which you have not directed any pinpoint criticism). The NAP has been miss abbreviated. it should be NIAP. because aggression has two meanings apply force, and attack. note attack is being the first to apply force in a situation. So please be accurate and bitch about how in your opinion Non-Initation-(of)Aggression-Principle is inconsistant with  killing during defence.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 4:44 PM | Locked
To brush aside all your trashy sophisms : libertarianism is built upon inalienable rights to life, liberty and property. You need to explain how a trespasser gives up/looses his inalienable right to life.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 4:51 PM | Locked

Juan:
: libertarianism is built upon inalienable rights to life, liberty and property

im afraid most libertarians dont agree that every human being has a 'right to life' . that would entail a right to medical care, food, etc. etc.

so if libertarianism wants to make statements free of contradiction, its better to say

'libertarianism is built upon liberty and property'

but maybe i just appreciate truth more than you do?

 

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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hayekianxyz replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 4:55 PM | Locked

I'm still undecided as to the ethical aspect of proportionality. I will however remark that if you're going to be blowing the brains of children out for stepping on your lawn you're going to have a very difficult time trying to find insurance.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:01 PM | Locked

GilesStratton:
will however remark that if you're going to be blowing the brains of children out for stepping on your lawn you're going to have a very difficult time trying to find insurance.

i completely agree.

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:03 PM | Locked
nirgrahamUK:
Juan:
You're kind of out of your depth.
pot, kettle, black.
Again, you're out of your depth as to why some people here quarrel with each other. So what you perceive as support for your deranged, sorry amazingly clever theories may be something else...
perhaps you didnt notice but Kinsella's document that you jumped on was concerned with a theory of punishment and not self-defence. perhaps you can tell me which of the two we have been focused on throughout?
We've been dealing with the ultimate foundation for rights. Of course, all you can do is quibble, no ?
juan, to put it to you as to a baby, without all the qualification and enlightened talk which i have expanded on profusely (to which you have not directed any pinpoint criticism).
What you see as enlightened talk I see as pointless evasion. It would be great if you managed to make your points succinctly. It would be easier to show they are just sophisms.
The NAP has been miss abbreviated. it should be NIAP. because aggression has two meanings apply force, and attack.
Haha..More quibbling eh ?
So please be accurate and bitch about how in your opinion Non-Initation-(of)Aggression-Principle is inconsistant with killing during defence.
No, you show how *in your opinion* killing is justified by the mere fact that a geographical line is being crossed.
im afraid most libertarians dont agree that every human being has a 'right to life' . that would entail a right to medical care, food, etc. etc.
Strawman. You can do better than that ? Maybe not. Anyway this is a negative right. You've a right to your life not being taken.
'libertarianism is built upon liberty and property'
Yes, because those are seen as extensions to life...
but maybe i just appreciate truth more than you do?
Give me a break.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:07 PM | Locked
GilesStratton:
I will however remark that if you're going to be blowing the brains of children out for stepping on your lawn you're going to have a very difficult time trying to find insurance.
Why ? It's a perfectly justified and moral thing to do.

You see, that would be kind of incongruent....You live in a free society....You stick to the very principle it's founded on. And yet your insurance costs are so high that nobody wants you as a client ? Weird....

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:14 PM | Locked

there is nothing incongrous about being a freeman in a free society whether your insurance costs, be high, or low.

 

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:27 PM | Locked
Ha ha ha. Really, you can do better than that. Or again, may be you cannot.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:29 PM | Locked

well if you want to judge morality based on insurance costs, we can call that Juan's thing. we'll make you a wikipage in political philosophies, we call it insurancism. the cheaper it is the righter you are !

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:30 PM | Locked
So, you stick to the very principle the PDAs are supposed to defend, non-aggression. And still the PDAs virtually refuse to do business with you. Pray, you enlightened nirgrahamUK, why would such a thing happen ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:31 PM | Locked

juan, what are you even critiquing anymore?

i havent been refused service by any PDA

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:32 PM | Locked
well if you want to judge morality based on insurance costs, we can call that Juan's thing. we'll make you a wikipage in political philosophies, we call it insurancism. the cheaper it is the righter you are !
Indeed. Your trying to make fun of it shows you really don't "get it".

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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