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Re: Brainpolice's statements in "You are free to leave..."

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Daniel Waite posted on Sat, Jan 17 2009 7:51 PM | Locked

Brainpolice said:
For example, one's ownership over their home, even if it is a just case of ownership, does not give you the right to assault and murder people just because they are in one's home. In other words, property rights do not trump life and liberty.

That strikes me as odd. I thought... well, I remember reading two very poignant scenarios in which consistency in justice must prevail over liberal morality if consistency is to be maintained.

One example was that a man who has been lost in the woods for days and is on the verge of dying comes onto your cabin property and begins shuffling through your kitchen. You shoot him. Are you in the wrong or the right? The article said in the right -- for you were defending your property.

If you invite a friend over for dinner and then shank him as soon as he enters the door, well, that certainly feels different, but why is one okay and not the other (at least according to my understanding of BP's statements)?

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:35 PM | Locked
juan, what are you even critiquing anymore? i havent been refused service by any PDA
So what. Please answer my question ? X fully supports the NIAP and yet the PDAs treat X as if X were virtually a criminal ? How so ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:41 PM | Locked

Juan:
juan, what are you even critiquing anymore? i havent been refused service by any PDA
So what. Please answer my question ? X fully supports the NIAP and yet the PDAs treat X as if X were virtually a criminal ? How so ?

thats a good question. an even better question is do you know the difference between being a criminal, and being treated as virtually a criminal?

 

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:44 PM | Locked
Never mind. Stop quibbling. Explain why X, who fully supports the NIAP, can't get the PDAs to do business with him, unless he pays a lot. And even then he may be denied service.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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nirgrahamUK replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:46 PM | Locked

because life isnt fair. because people dont have positive obligations to provide insurance and protection services to people if they dont want to. and on and on, its almost like you know less about libertarianism than you did when we started

 

sheeeeesh

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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hayekianxyz replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:47 PM | Locked

Looks like I gave Juan a new argument, imagine that.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:50 PM | Locked
because life isnt fair. because people dont have positive obligations to provide insurance and protection services to people if they dont want to. and on and on, its almost like you know less about libertarianism than you did when we started
Stop lying. Your answers are beyond silly

an even better question is do you know the difference between being a criminal, and being treated as virtually a criminal?
The point is, and you know it, that criminals don't respect the NAP. That's why PDAs wouldn't be too eager to do business with them. But we have poor X who is a true believer in the NAP (according to you...) and still he finds himself ostracized as if he were a...what ? An ordinary murderer ? Weird.

You know what ? There seem to be an objective way to ascertain what is and what is not real self-defense. And since doing that is possible, PDAs will do it. And the reason why X has higher costs is because he's not really engaging in self-defense, but is an aggressor.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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hayekianxyz replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:53 PM | Locked

I'm curious, if person A says to person B, jokingly, "if you do X, you're so dead", can person B put a bullet in A's brain?

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 5:55 PM | Locked
Looks like I gave Juan a new argument, imagine that.
In that case, thank you =]

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Daniel Waite replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 8:02 PM | Locked
Juan:
because life isnt fair. because people dont have positive obligations to provide insurance and protection services to people if they dont want to. and on and on, its almost like you know less about libertarianism than you did when we started
Stop lying. Your answers are beyond silly

LOL. On TWO accounts. First I laughed at NUK's comment (knowing less than when you started) and secondly at Juan's response.

Specifically in what I quoted of NUK's, what's a lie? Life isn't fair. In a free society, I don't HAVE to serve you candy if I don't want to. Beautiful, isn't it?

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hayekianxyz replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 8:14 PM | Locked

Daniel Waite:
Specifically in what I quoted of NUK's, what's a lie? Life isn't fair. In a free society, I don't HAVE to serve you candy if I don't want to. Beautiful, isn't it?

I think you're missing Juan's point to be honest.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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liberty student replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 8:30 PM | Locked

Juan:
Never mind. Stop quibbling.

Oh man, my sides are splitting from laughter.

 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 8:33 PM | Locked

nirgrahamUK:

its almost like you know less about libertarianism than you did when we started

Juan has been making it up as he goes for a long time.  It's all his preferences, and a society that follows libertarian values without conflict, which is why his ever mentioning PDAs is laughable.  Juan believes that a "libertarian society" will include stepford people who follow the NAP without question or conflict.  It's as utopian as it is naive.

 

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 8:35 PM | Locked

Daniel Waite:
what's a lie? Life isn't fair. In a free society, I don't HAVE to serve you candy if I don't want to.

See my last post.   I've butted heads with Juan on this many times.  He really believes that conflict won't arise, can't arise because a libertarian society, always follows the NAP.

Also, in a free society, people won't serve people they don't like.  They will fire warning shot at strangers standing in their yard.  They will release their dogs to play on their property, if there is a stranger in the back yard, and they will not call the dogs off if they attack a trespasser.

As it should be.  The trespasser, doesn't place a positive obligation on the property owner by aggressing against him.  To believe otherwise, is uncivilized.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 11:04 PM | Locked
Daniel Waite:
Specifically in what I quoted of NUK's, what's a lie?
Yes, I should have worded that one better. But I didn't feel like editing it. What I mean is that NUK's 'answers' answer nothing. He knows that if he gives an honest answer he will undermine his point so he 'lies'. Technically it's not a lie. It's evasion...or something.
In a free society, I don't HAVE to serve you candy if I don't want to. Beautiful, isn't it?
Yeah. Who said otherwise ?

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan replied on Sat, Jan 24 2009 11:05 PM | Locked
LS:
The trespasser, doesn't place a positive obligation on the property owner by aggressing against him. To believe otherwise, is uncivilized.
Liberty Student, a lot of your posts offer me an annoying choice. Do I waste time replying to your ridiculous misrepresentations or not ? In this case I will :

To respect the right to life of a trespasser is NOT a positive obligation. Now, go back to square one.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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