I've always believed that people should be free. Libertarian philosophy seems to match with much of the beliefs that I have. It's the only real political philosophy that makes sense to me.
I just recently realized why economic liberalism is wrong and I realized that libertarianism was the right economic philosophy. I listened to an audiobook about austrian economics (what Henry Haydik and Ludwig Von Mises thought about austrian economics), and so, I believed that influenced me a lot and helped me believe in the free market a whole lot more than as opposed to when I was way more economically to the left and more socialist.
What kinds of things are there that would help get me up to speed? I'm fascinated by libertarian thought and austrian economics. I wish it were more mainstream and that more people cared about freedom and liberty. Suggestions please?
This forum looks great. Can someone also help me around and tell me what I can expect with this forum?
Hi SilentXtarian!
Welcome to the forums.
"What kinds of things are there that would help get me up to speed? "
The foundations of libertarianism and the non aggressiom axiom and Lockean Homesteading private property rights. Stick with those, without violating either and you can't go wrong.
"Can someone also help me around and tell me what I can expect with this forum?"
Check out the "Media" section = full of audiobooks, lectures and a wealth of information that is nearly impossible to come by.
Also the "Literature" section = full of pdf's, entire books for free.
As far as where to start. It depends on what want to know. Take a real good look around the "Media" section and get downloadhelper.net or some other tool, download them, put them on your ipod, mp3 player and let the learning begin.
Let's see, suggested reading.
Austrian economics specifically? Start with "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt and work through Hazlitt's suggested reading list (which of course has "Human Action", "Man, Economy, and State", etc.). Hulsmann's "Mises: The Last Knight of Liberalism", while a biography, seems to be a pretty good intro to the ideas of Mises himself.
Libertarian thought? I personally like Ayn Rand, though some people hate her. I'd read her stuff, especially "The Fountainhead" and "Atlas Shrugged." You don't need to drink all the Objectivist Kool Aid to appreciate her work.
While I'm sure there will be some people who disagree with me on this, but I'd suggest checking out some agorist literature. It's stuff I only discovered fairly recently, so I'd read Samuel Edward Konkin III's "New Libertarian Manifesto" (by the way, I recommend Murray Rothbard's "For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto" as well) and his recently post humously released "An Agorist Primer" which has a decent summary of Austrian economics.
I also recommend listening to lectures like Mises University and LeFerve Commentaries (which influenced me quite a bit) in the Media section.
In this thread, there is a short reading list further down that might help;
http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/1184.aspx
The difference between libertarianism and socialism is that libertarians will tolerate the existence of a socialist community, but socialists can't tolerate a libertarian community.
SilentXtarian: I've always believed that people should be free. Libertarian philosophy seems to match with much of the beliefs that I have. It's the only real political philosophy that makes sense to me. I just recently realized why economic liberalism is wrong and I realized that libertarianism was the right economic philosophy. I listened to an audiobook about austrian economics (what Henry Haydik and Ludwig Von Mises thought about austrian economics), and so, I believed that influenced me a lot and helped me believe in the free market a whole lot more than as opposed to when I was way more economically to the left and more socialist. What kinds of things are there that would help get me up to speed? I'm fascinated by libertarian thought and austrian economics. I wish it were more mainstream and that more people cared about freedom and liberty. Suggestions please? This forum looks great. Can someone also help me around and tell me what I can expect with this forum?
I would reccomend reading and listening to Walter Block. He has a very friendly, welcoming style and he really helped me when I first began studying Austrian Economics.
...And nobody has ever taught you how to live out on the street, But now you're gonna have to get used to it...
For economics, read the following books in this order:
Those are probably the 10 best introductory books to Austrian Economics I can suggest.
Other works that I would say are important for libertarian theory are:
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
In addition to the other great suggestions (in particular Giles') also be aware that Mises.org has a home study couse in Economics which includes a lot of the books that people have recommended above, along with a bunch of MP3 recordings of lectures etc. and a genereal reading guide (recommending a 52 week reading schedule to get through it all - which would be a fairly tight schedule to be hones): Home Study Course
Of course, a lot of the material in that course is available for download from Mises.org for free... so another possibility would be to grab yourself an eBook reader like the Kindle or (for non-Americans) the BeBook... but some people just prefer paper.
I myself have never actually read much literature outside of the Mises daily articles and FEE.org articles. I have tried to read some of the books, but since I already understand it most of it, I get bored really quick. I find the best way for me to learn is to just discuss things with other people. I was always very disappointed with my government funded/provided education. They never wanted to discuss anything. No opposing viewpoints were ever allowed. Not so on the internet. As long as you are genuinely interested, you will find a lot of people on this forum that will be happy to explain things to you here.
At most, I think only 5% of the adult population would need to stop cooperating to have real change.
Spideynw: I myself have never actually read much literature outside of the Mises daily articles and FEE.org articles. I have tried to read some of the books, but since I already understand it most of it, I get bored really quick. I find the best way for me to learn is to just discuss things with other people. I was always very disappointed with my government funded/provided education. They never wanted to discuss anything. No opposing viewpoints were ever allowed. Not so on the internet. As long as you are genuinely interested, you will find a lot of people on this forum that will be happy to explain things to you here.
I'm sorry to tell you but there are many things inside the pages of Human Action or Money, Bank Credit and Economic Cycles or whatever that you can't and won't learn on any forum.
GilesStratton:I'm sorry to tell you but there are many things inside the pages of Human Action or Money, Bank Credit and Economic Cycles or whatever that you can't and won't learn on any forum.
You are sorry? ;)
But really, I doubt there is. There is no need for me to understand the specifics of banking. I know enough about monopolies to know that the government needs to get out of the currency market.
As to Human Action, I really doubt there is anything in it that I would not already know.
A very good economics outline with links to a lot of audio files, .pdf version of books, and articles can be found at: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/edu/economics.php
If you click on their "education" tab, you can get outlines to other topics, such as sound money, foreign policy, education, and so on.
Spideynw:As to Human Action, I really doubt there is anything in it that I would not already know.
I'd be surprised if there was ANYONE in these forums who knew everything in that book (excepting those with photographic memories and authors of the study guide such as Bob Murphy). Surely you could imagine having something to learn from at least one of the greatest minds in history? If not, I'm pleased to make your aquaintance and why haven't you been more prolific in your own writings to explain to other people how things work?
Sometimes I learn stuff reading books I've already read since, on the second pass through I've got a new appreciation for the material or a more solid understanding of the individual concepts explained, so I start to see the more general structure/flow of the argument and broader consequences.
Sometimes I read the same argument presented by different authors and find I draw two different ways of viewing the same argument from complimentary but unique metaphors.
And in virtually every single Austrian book I've read I've pulled out at least a handful of new ideas that I'd never even thought of... Menger's Principles was a particularly good read, not least because it was dealing with such elementary market actions - but describing them so clearly. You come away from it not so much with new ideas but with an enhanced clarity and explicit understanding of some of the ideas you already had or thought you had (but hadn't really through through well enough to understand them on anywhere near the same level as Menger).
I don't mean to be rude, but don't you worry that perhaps yoru arrogance is stunting your intellectual growth? Surely you could imagine learning something from the world's greatest thinkers?
Spideynw:As to Human Action, I really doubt there is anything in it that I would not already know
Why are you even on this forum if you have no interest in learning AE?
Reading it would let you find out, no?
Freedom of markets is positively correlated with the degree of evolution in any society...
Read these books, and you should have a fairly solid foundation to continue in your studies:
Economics in One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt. Definitely read this book first. It is perhaps the best introduction to economic logic ever written.
I would follow up Hazlitt's book with Essentials of Economics by Faustino Ballve. Another short, but terrific read.
Frederic Bastiat's The Law is another short work that is well worth reading.
Then I would dip my toes into some of the works of Mises. The best place to start, IMO, is The Anti-Capitalistic Mentality. Very short, very readable.
The Concise Guide to Economics by Jim Cox can also be used to tie up any loose ends you might be unsure with economically. It's a very breezy read (I read it in around 45 minutes).
These are all really short, easily read and digestible books. You can finish all of them in a week. I think it's important to have fun while you are first learning about libertarian thought, and these books fit the bill. I don't recommend jumping into a huge treatise like Human Action just yet. Get your feet wet with these books and then when you feel like you are ready, tackle Human Action or Man, Economy, and State methodically and slowly.
Once you are done with these introductory books, I would highly recommend reading Mises' Socialism. The book is a lot bigger than the others (around 600 pages if I remember correctly), but will be a highly rewarding experience, completey dismembering all forms of socialist theory and apologetics.
Oh, and welcome! :)
jimmy:I don't mean to be rude, but don't you worry that perhaps yoru arrogance is stunting your intellectual growth? Surely you could imagine learning something from the world's greatest thinkers?
The problem is your assumption that I did not learn from them. As I stated, I read the Mises.org and FEE.org daily posts pretty much daily. Some stuff directly from Mises himself gets posted on there. Other stuff is from other people that have learned from Mises. I am not being arrogant. I just recognize that I already have learned from him and the other Austrian authors.
I may one day decide to write something, but probably not. The only thing I think needs to be clarified are parent's rights vs. children's rights and maybe more writings on the proper extent of the law. Otherwise, I think the Austrian authors have done a great job covering every other political issue.
GilesStratton: Spideynw:As to Human Action, I really doubt there is anything in it that I would not already know Why are you even on this forum if you have no interest in learning AE?
Because I am not so much here to learn as to help others learn.
champthom: . It's stuff I only discovered fairly recently, so I'd read Samuel Edward Konkin III's "New Libertarian Manifesto" (by the way, I recommend Murray Rothbard's "For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto" as well) and his recently post humously released "An Agorist Primer" which has a decent summary of Austrian economics.
. It's stuff I only discovered fairly recently, so I'd read Samuel Edward Konkin III's "New Libertarian Manifesto" (by the way, I recommend Murray Rothbard's "For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto" as well) and his recently post humously released "An Agorist Primer" which has a decent summary of Austrian economics.
Good list, although I must dissent here. NLM, and most everything by Konkin should be avoided. In NLM Konkin goes on a bizarre (and frankly, unlibertarian) rant on the 'evils' of wage 'slavery' as well as employment hierarchy. When I was first getting into radical libertarianism and searching out literature I came across New Libertarian Manifesto and it was confusing. I thought, "isnt libertarianism pro market/free association?". Later on I rediscovered Murray Rothbard who I had read years earlier in Chronicles and he put me back on the right track.
I agree with most of the other repliers list, Economics in One Lesson is a good starting point. I would follow up that with Human Action and maybe graduate your way up to For a New Liberty and Democracy: The God that Failed.
Spideynw:The only thing I think needs to be clarified are parent's rights vs. children's rights and maybe more writings on the proper extent of the law.
Check out Bruno Leoni on the subject of the later (this of course would require reading a book mind you, since this topic comes up very rarely in the forums of Mises Blog/Daily). My most recent blog post was a short introduction to some of his works, but harly does it justice.
Right, and guess what? That means you need to know a thing or two yourself. The thing is you don't even seem to have an interest in AE.
If you are extremley new to economics, I would recommend Mark Skousen's "Economics On Trial". It's providing an interesting transitory argument that depicts mainstream economics & argues against it with an Austrian influenced viewpoint. It's also very easy on the eyes to read (his wife apparently helped him make the book more understandable to the layman). Although, if you've already tackled heavier reading, it may not be necessary to read. Other's can help you out with that if this is the case. I would recommend the following blogs:The Liberty Papers (recommended for beginners)David ZFSK's Guide To Reality I would recommend also to stick around on the Wikipedia entries of terms of interests, & ask for a few blogs to read frequently (I can send a list if you want, but you can find blogs other people read by looking at their mises profiles & clicking on the feeds sidebar). The forum can be a good preparatory experience before reading books & such, if you avoid most of the semantically & ad hom. portions of the debates / arguments, that is. Good Luck on your increasing your knowledge base
"Look at me, I'm quoting another user to show how wrong I think they are, out of arrogance of my own position. Wait, this is my own quote, oh shi-" ~ Nitroadict
Didn't Henry Hazlitt compile a suggested reading list? Or maybe it was someone else.
GilesStratton: Right, and guess what? That means you need to know a thing or two yourself. The thing is you don't even seem to have an interest in AE.
Now you are just being immature, accusing me of not knowing anything. And what do you base the statement on that I do not have an interest in AE? The fact that I read the Mises daily article almost daily? Or that I post here often?
Spideynw: GilesStratton: Right, and guess what? That means you need to know a thing or two yourself. The thing is you don't even seem to have an interest in AE. Now you are just being immature, accusing me of not knowing anything. And what do you base the statement on that I do not have an interest in AE? The fact that I read the Mises daily article almost daily? Or that I post here often?
I'm not saying you lack knowledge completely. I'm just questioning your claim that you can help people learn about AE without having read any of the literature yourself.
As for an interest in AE, if it were serious I daresay you would have ventured past the daily articles. Once again, there's only so much you can learn from pieces only a few pages in length.
GilesStratton: I'm not saying you lack knowledge completely. I'm just questioning your claim that you can help people learn about AE without having read any of the literature yourself. As for an interest in AE, if it were serious I daresay you would have ventured past the daily articles. Once again, there's only so much you can learn from pieces only a few pages in length.
These are the kind of shallow comments I expect of you Giles.
I learned all the ideas in Human Action before I ever opened the book. That is not to say I did not benefit when I finally did read it, but it does show that it is entirely possible to learn what a writer has to say without having been directly exposed to his writings. I actually would not recommend it to just anyone. It was written for a particular sort of mind, and frankly for someone with a lot of time to read. A person who has neither can still have a thorough understanding of Austrian theory without forcing a particular text into their heads (and schedule).
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
Alright... may I ask which books are easiest to read for a beginner?
I've read Introduction to Austrian Economics and I understood that. I tried reading Omnipresent State and Total War but I decided to just go ahead and purchase the book...
Which ones are easier to read?
For a beginner, I would strongly recommend Harry Browne's Why Government Doesn't Work
It's available for free at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6524131/Harry-Browne-Why-Government-Doesnt-Work
I also recommend all the short articles he wrote on various subjects before he died:
http://www.harrybrowne.org/TopicalIndex.htm
This was the guy who first made me a libertarian: he's persuasive, entertaining and easy to read.
Here are a couple sites I visit almost every day. From these you can scout out many more, since there are many links to the articles and essays. And, of course, be sure to click the "Home" page for Mises. Perhaps the largest collection of libertarian material on the web anywhere.
The Lew Rockwell Site: http://www.lewrockwell.com/
One of the best libertarian sites on the web. Scroll through articles daily, the blog., be sure when you see a column/columnist you like, look over his/her “archives”.
Strike The Root Site: http://www.strike-the-root.com/
Also one I usually visit daily. I’m an “anarchist”, and this site leans more toward that bent than does Lew Rockwell. Rockwell is more “Ron Paul type ministatists”.
While I'm at it I'll give you a link to a page in Advocates for Self Gov't that has links to many more:
http://theadvocates.org/links.html
Best of success. Regards,
Samarami
Hello. Here's a story I wrote last week for my 13 & 11 year old kids to help them understand Austrian business cycle theory. I sent a copy to Walter E Williams who responded within the hour, "Nice." I was thrilled! Hope you enjoy it and your journey throught this awesome web site that is mises.org!
The Three Little Pigs and the Federal Reserve Crisis
In their later years, they bought a yacht and sailed the seven seas. The three little pigs each had a bag of gold coins to spend at the various ports of call. The good life. No wolves, no Federal Reserve, no worries. Or so they thought...One dark and stormy night, they were shipwrecked on a deserted tropical island. They spluttered ashore each with their coin purses clutched greedily...
ONE YEAR LATER...
No one came to rescue them and after some trial and some error, they had established a common sense division of labor: each pig specialized in doing one thing so their combined output was more than if each had to do everything for himself. And they were able to trade with each other using their gold coins. It wasn t what you d call the good life anymore, but it was pretty good and it worked. Here is how: One pig cut down trees and fashioned them into good square lengths of lumber stored flat in his lumber shed. He became the Lumberpig and worked day and night making one good square-cut length of lumber every month (he only had one simple stone tool). Another pig, the Fisherpig, specialized in fishing from a small raft and offering fresh seafood for sale on the beach every day before lunch and surfing all afternoon. The third pig used a small bucket that had washed ashore to go back and forth to the spring in the middle of the island to collect water for sale to his brothers. They started calling him Bucketpig, or Buck for short. Buck would often join Fisherpig in the evening for drinks and fish feasts on the beach in front of a roaring fire of lumber pieces. All work and no play made Lumberpig a dull pig although he had saved up a respectable pile of lumber. Not huge, but respectable.
THE CAPITALIST PIGS DREAM...
Like many a businessman over drinks after work, Buck and Fisherpig would brag and tell lies to each other about the expansion plans they had and how they were going to hit it big. The truth was, they did each have a pretty good plan: Fisherpig was planning to plow his savings into new lumber to build a fishing boat with oars and a mast so he could get out to where the big hauls were. That way he could be finished getting a daily supply of fish for the island in the morning and start a tool making business on the side. For his part, Buck had in fact already drawn up plans for a simple lumber aqueduct to bring water in from the spring. He then would be free to work on his wind power idea (he was planning to stay specialized in Utilities). Each dreaming pig just needed 100 lengths of lumber. Each pig just had one problem: Lumberpig charged 1 coin per length and each pig only had about 50 coins in their piggy bank in a good month.
"Who could ever seriously save 100 coins anyway? Ah well," they each thought before going to sleep, "at least dreaming isfree.
FREE MONEY! REAL OR A MIRAGE?
One evening, their stories spent, Fisherpig and Buck gazed in silence over the blue green span of the lagoon. Something caught their eye. Do you see what I see Buck? Buck was already up on his hind trotters and half-way there.
"It s a treasure box washed ashore and filled with 200 gold coins!!...If you promise not to tell Lumberpig, I ll split it with you 50/50."
"Sure. You and I have just inflated the island's money supply."
"Yeah! I just love inflation, don t you? Especially when you get the new money first and nobody else knows about it!"
They laughed and feasted deep into the night. Each secretly planning to rise early the next morning to start working on their dreams! Dreams that would unfortunately turn into nightmares because of the treasure box's evil inflation that they didn t yet understand.
LUMBERPIG STARTS SELLING OUT OF INVENTORY
Day and night weren't enough time anymore for Lumberpig to keep up his inventory levels. In the past few months both his brothers had been placing about four times the usual volume of lumber orders. More money was good all right, but what he hadn't told them was that at this rate, he was running out of lumber! He kept his lumber shed locked up and no one knew the actual respectable quantity he usually had in inventory but him. Truth was, it was normally only about 100 lengths. And as hard as he worked, he couldn't work fast enough to make more than one length a month. He was down to 20 lengths left and stared up at the ceiling at night,
"What should I do? Fisherpig and Buck are each buying about 2 lengths a month. How many surfboards and bonfires do they need? In less than six months I ll be out of stock!!" He thought of raising his prices. "Hm mm. That would stop frivolous buying wouldn t it? Then the pig who needed the lumber most would pay the higher price, right? Sounds fair and even more extra money for me would be nice. No. I can t do that. I m not a greedy pig. I ll leave my prices where they are .maybe things will work out somehow if ...but...Zzz." And he fell asleep.Meanwhile, Buck and Fisherpig were each 40% done on their respective projects and going full steam. Little did they know, that in 5 months, Lumberpig was going to hit them with news that would have the impact of a 2x4 between the eyes.
FREE MONEY WASN T REAL AFTER ALL. IT WAS A MIRAGE. IT DIDN T CREATE NEW RESOURCES IT WAS EVIL INFLATION EVIL INFLATION THAT CONFUSED CAPITALIST PIGS INTO STARTING PROJECTS THAT COULD NEVER BE FINISHED
"Sorry Buck. Sorry Fisherpig. See for yourself," Lumberpig opened the shed door wide. "The lumber is all gone. I m sold out."
"AGGHHHH!!! NO!!!" said Fisherpig. "I m ruined! I used the raft lumber in my new boat construction that is only half done! Now I have nothing to fish with to make a living!! And Lumberpig, you made it worse! Why didn't you raise your prices right away to stop one of our projects sooner -- especially Buck's harebrained water slide!! So much extra WASTE!! -- just because you couldn't bring yourself to be greedy!!!...If only that phony inflation box had never appeared!!!", he sobbed.
"I m hungry," said Buck thoughtfully. "And you know what? I screwed up too. I've built a water bridge to nowhere. And, Fisherpig, you know what s funny about all this? If we hadn't been fooled by that box of inflation, you and I could have pooled our savings and actually completed one of our projects."
There was no fire on the beach that night. Not even a meager fish dinner. And three thirsty little pigs. Later they burned the inflation box to keep warm for a while.**THE END**Rev.1 Feb.24/09
"Economics in one lesson" is a great place to start only about 200 pages and very well written. "The Law "by bastiat is great for really breaking down the roll of government in less than 100 pages. To get familiar with the monetary issue Rothbard's "the case against the fed " and "what has governement done to our money" are both under 100 pages If I remember corrrectly. "the revolution a manifesto" by ron paul is also a good outline of a liberterian platform and under 200 pages
Exelent story!
I've got lots and lots of grandkids and a little great granddaughter almost 3. Whenever I get the chace, I play this skit for them:
http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf
Regards,
Geo. Keagle