Bastiat said that "The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
What do you think is the most "ineptly defended" aspect of libertarianism?
Personally, I would say NAP and homesteading.
AnalyticalAnarchism.net - The Positive Political Economy of Anarchism
i would say law. crime and punishment, homesteading rights, lifeboat scenario. rothbard himself admitted that legal theory is pretty weak. anarchy and law is an exellent book, however. if you think we are weak in law, i say look at the anarcho-communists. .
Vulgar libertarianism. The tendency for (some) libertarians to defend, or appear to defend, Big Business, rather than champion the cause of small businesses and wage earners. We need to give the people a shoulder to cry on. YOU DID NOT DESERVE TO LOSE YOUR HOUSE. YOU DID NOT DESERVE TO LOSE YOUR JOB. YES, THE GAME IS RIGGED.
Also, libertarian criticism of "democracy" can be seen as elitism or anti-egalitarianism. I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy.
"As long as there are sovereign nations possessing great power, war is inevitable."
Byzantine: ama gi:I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy. Can you articulate to the working class why open borders that increase the supply of working class labor is in their best interest? Or for that matter, can you convince a Lebanese Christian dutifully going to their local Orthodox parish and clinging to their last shred of the old country why they shouldn't care that Muslims are as free to immigrate to their locale as anybody else? Can you present a simple, compelling argument to blacks why civil rights laws and affirmative action should be abolished? Or why it shouldn't trouble them one iota that the Mises Institute is whiter than Augusta National? Can you persuade a Southern Baptist granny in West Virginia that she should allow prostitution, pornography and abortion? Go get 'em, tiger.
ama gi:I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy.
Can you articulate to the working class why open borders that increase the supply of working class labor is in their best interest? Or for that matter, can you convince a Lebanese Christian dutifully going to their local Orthodox parish and clinging to their last shred of the old country why they shouldn't care that Muslims are as free to immigrate to their locale as anybody else?
Can you present a simple, compelling argument to blacks why civil rights laws and affirmative action should be abolished? Or why it shouldn't trouble them one iota that the Mises Institute is whiter than Augusta National?
Can you persuade a Southern Baptist granny in West Virginia that she should allow prostitution, pornography and abortion?
Go get 'em, tiger.
lol
Byzantine:Can you articulate to the working class why open borders that increase the supply of working class labor is in their best interest?
Tell the WASP that a third-grade educated foreignor who doesn't speak English couldnt possibly threaten their job.
Byzantine:Or for that matter, can you convince a Lebanese Christian dutifully going to their local Orthodox parish and clinging to their last shred of the old country why they shouldn't care that Muslims are as free to immigrate to their locale as anybody else?
Christians aren' t supposed to live separately, but are supposed to go unto all the world.
Byzantine:Can you present a simple, compelling argument to blacks why civil rights laws and affirmative action should be abolished? Or why it shouldn't trouble them one iota that the Mises Institute is whiter than Augusta National?
It wouldnt be if they would join!
Byzantine:Can you persuade a Southern Baptist granny in West Virginia that she should allow prostitution, pornography and abortion?
Maybe granny should convert sinners instead of putting them in jail.
Without a doubt, the legal system/courts. Just do a search on the topic here and you can see no one seems to agree with each other. It was my hang up on becoming a full ancap for years.
ama gi: Also, libertarian criticism of "democracy" can be seen as elitism or anti-egalitarianism. I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy.
Frankly I wouldnt have it any other way, being that it is a revolt against nature.
Byzantine: ama gi:Christians aren' t supposed to live separately, but are supposed to go unto all the world. What fucking arrogance. Ever talked to Middle Eastern Christians? I do every Sunday.
ama gi:Christians aren' t supposed to live separately, but are supposed to go unto all the world.
What fucking arrogance. Ever talked to Middle Eastern Christians? I do every Sunday.
Never let them see you sweat.
The environment (though to be fair, there's no political philosophy that has a perfect solution to that one).
Agreed, the ancap legal system is kind of hazy and theoretical. Easy for a minarchist to attack.
But dammit, minarchism is just too boring. Lacks any edginess at all.
ama gi:Vulgar libertarianism. The tendency for (some) libertarians to defend, or appear to defend, Big Business, rather than champion the cause of small businesses and wage earners.
small businesses are not exactly a bunch of angels. lets not forget it was apple who championed retirement plans for gay couples not yemenese deli shop owners who slavedrive their mexican cattle.
Byzantine:Let me be clear I'm not arguing what's objectively right. Like Stranger says, it will be a matter of giving consumers what government cannot.
What does that mean? Are you saying that if some consumers want you to capture women for them, or to attack blacks, or to drive mexicans off some land, you would do it for money?
trust me, im not a white liberal. i simply observe that the sainted small businesses whose hands are not red by government subsidy have under their command a reserve army of labor they could shit on every morning.
Byzantine:Ever hung drywall? Run a mower on a golf course? Go into a white trailer park and tell them you have their best interests at heart. This is a white upper middle-class argument. In fact, that's the very reason meso-american immigration into the US is not opposed by the white elite: their law school/med school/MBA bound offspring are not threatened by it.
The trailor park people are worse off now than they would be under anarchy. Immigrant workers are subsidized with welfare rights. Also, they are slave laborers who can be jailed at will.
The white trailor park people are competing against slave labor, and paying for it with taxes!
Byzantine:I wouldn't.
Cool.
Byzantine:But I also doubt the majority of producers would give a shit if an abortionist's house burned down, or if the percentage of blacks relative to whites employed in engineering didn't equal their percentage of the population.
Well, any savvy producer would see a market and a profit opportunity where there is injustice. I'm not saying those are examples of injustice, but you know what I mean.
ama gi:The white trailor park people are competing against slave labor, and paying for it with taxes!
The bottom 50% only pay 1% of the taxes. Poor (white) people don't pay taxes.
The masses are net tax consumers.
so with this thread we just arrived at the conclusion that free trade would hurt the masses (ie trailer trash)
garegin:so with this thread we just arrived at the conclusion that free trade would hurt the masses (ie trailer trash)Huh?
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
ama gi:The tendency for (some) libertarians to defend, or appear to defend, Big Business, rather than champion the cause of small businesses and wage earners.
The problem isn't in choosing sides, its in choosing the wrong side?
Roflcopter.
ama gi:Also, libertarian criticism of "democracy" can be seen as elitism or anti-egalitarianism. I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy.
Don't the mass get to decide for themselves what enemies they want to have?
Peace
Byzantine: ama gi:I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy. Or for that matter, can you convince a Lebanese Christian dutifully going to their local Orthodox parish and clinging to their last shred of the old country why they shouldn't care that Muslims are as free to immigrate to their locale as anybody else?
Or for that matter, can you convince a Lebanese Christian dutifully going to their local Orthodox parish and clinging to their last shred of the old country why they shouldn't care that Muslims are as free to immigrate to their locale as anybody else?
Comming from that background, and knowing quite a few in the largest area where they are concentrated (NW Ohio/ Southeast MI) I can't name any I know that would even care.
Righteous government, or the righteous lack thereof, is not the producer of a righteous society, it is the product of one.
You can't have my guns, but I'd be glad to give you my bullets...
Byzantine: Dondoolee:Comming from that background, and knowing quite a few in the largest area where they are concentrated (NW Ohio/ Southeast MI) I can't name any I know that would even care. That is because there is a huge, anti-Muslim US government that backs their civil rights. As that central power diminishes (and the perceptive Lebanese Christians see it very clearly), the distinctions between here and Lebanon become less sharp.
Dondoolee:Comming from that background, and knowing quite a few in the largest area where they are concentrated (NW Ohio/ Southeast MI) I can't name any I know that would even care.
That is because there is a huge, anti-Muslim US government that backs their civil rights. As that central power diminishes (and the perceptive Lebanese Christians see it very clearly), the distinctions between here and Lebanon become less sharp.
My family and friends have been steadily migrating over here (To Ohio and MI) scince the 50's from Syria and Lebanon. While my family and their Xtian has the background of Orthodox Christain (and some VERY devout) they mingle completley with the Muslims. There is absolutly no tension, their never has been. Many of the closest friends to the family are VERY devout muslims. This is not a group of less than 50 people I am talking about, this is a very substatial portion of the NW Ohio and SE MI Arabs (not just Syria and Lebanon) as well as some sprinkles in more southern and eastern parts of Ohio.
That being said the majority of them that I know came over here in poverty (particularly those from the 50's and 60's) and all of them made off into the middle class, most w/o govt jobs or welfare. I would imagine the avg IQ ranges from 90-120 on most of them.
Byzantine: Can you articulate to the working class why open borders that increase the supply of working class labor is in their best interest?
Can you articulate to the working class why open borders that increase the supply of working class labor is in their best interest?
Lower labor costs = lower prices for goods. You probably would need to combine it with an appeal to eliminate the minimum wage in order to soak up unemployment. It does go to show that liberalism/libertarianism doesn't work in bits and pieces, and that some propositions which are difficult to swallow are just as important as the "friendly" parts. It's also not such an obvious proposition, since wealthy countries can afford to subsidize consumption (eg through agricultural subsidies) in order to placate the poor. Panem et circenses.
sicsempertyrannis: ama gi: Also, libertarian criticism of "democracy" can be seen as elitism or anti-egalitarianism. I think that for anarcho-capitalism to take off, we must make it clear that the masses are not our enemy. Frankly I wouldnt have it any other way, being that it is a revolt against nature.
Care to explain?
I think inequality is a revolt against nature. Although hierarchies are expedient at times, they are on shaky ground at best. Those who are widely admired today could be reviled tomorrow; those wealthy today could be paupers tomorrow; and those who are weak today may be strong tomorrow. Attempts by those with economic or political power to preserve that power forever inevitably lead to oppression, revolutions, and war. And they always fail.
It' s high time we realize that the masses will prevail, and it is impossible to adopt economic policies that are against their interests.
Think about it.
Byzantine:White trailer trash don't pay taxes. Nobody earning under $50K/yr +/- is a net tax producer.
Of course the poor suffer. Who else pays to keep the machine running?
The ones making $50K or less are the ones hardest hit by monetary inflation and interest on counterfeit $$$. They are the ones whose livelihoods are threatened by every twist and turn of the money spigot.
The rich, on the other hand, are the ones benefitting from monetary inflation, interest on counterfeit money, intellectual property, government contracts, the military-industrial complex, and Obama bailouts.
ama gi:I think inequality is a revolt against nature.
Roflcopter
ama gi:The ones making $50K or less are the ones hardest hit by monetary inflation and interest on counterfeit $$$. They are the ones whose livelihoods are threatened by every twist and turn of the money spigot. The rich, on the other hand, are the ones benefitting from monetary inflation, interest on counterfeit money, intellectual property, government contracts, the military-industrial complex, and Obama bailouts.
Juan: ama gi:The ones making $50K or less are the ones hardest hit by monetary inflation and interest on counterfeit $$. They are the ones whose livelihoods are threatened by every twist and turn of the money spigot.The rich, on the other hand, are the ones benefitting from monetary inflation, interest on counterfeit money, intellectual property, government contracts, the military-industrial complex, and Obama bailouts. The funny (or rather sad) thing is, saying that will get you branded as an egalitarian marxist or something...
ama gi:The ones making $50K or less are the ones hardest hit by monetary inflation and interest on counterfeit $$. They are the ones whose livelihoods are threatened by every twist and turn of the money spigot.The rich, on the other hand, are the ones benefitting from monetary inflation, interest on counterfeit money, intellectual property, government contracts, the military-industrial complex, and Obama bailouts.
Funny you mention that. While I have not noticed it as a common trait, I have noticed that attitude by some libertarian types. From my experience they happen to be "intellectual", much like the annoying and dangerous "intellectuals" of the left. How common a trait do you think this is?
As far as the most ineptly defended thing by libertarians. To me it is succesfully getting the masses and the intellectuals the AMAZING success in propaganda by leftists, and the AMAZING hypocrisy of leftists.
The fact that libertarians don't understand anarchy, which leads them to say silly things about Somalia not being anarchist.
The strength of familial bonds shows the huge productivity of the family. The family has only really gone into decline since the 20th century, namely when government power and size exploded.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
GilesStratton:The fact that libertarians don't understand anarchy, which leads them to say silly things about Somalia not being anarchist
Libertarians define anarchy as being related to circumstances where the NAP prevails more than not.
GilesStratton:The strength of familial bonds shows the huge productivity of the family. The family has only really gone into decline since the 20th century, namely when government power and size exploded.
Technology has started to change the nature of socio-biology. That trend will continue. Women no longer will need men to hunt or for protection, and both sexes will not longer need one another for procreation. Whether that is moral, desirable, etc, I don't think that it is achievable can be of doubt.
"The family" as you constantly refer to it is quickly becoming an anachronism. Again, I'm not saying that is desirable, but it's an acknowledgement that not all evolutionary paradigms are fixed.
Do you mean immediate family (parents, siblings) or a wider sense of the term, such as a House, GilesStratton?